Myth-buster NBA game

[proref27]

Originally posted by PS2Man

This is still your opinion. I have seen the NBA change to things or philosophies that were done at the college ranks in recent years. Philosophies like rotating from the lead position. The NBA officials move much more from the lead position then they have in many years. They used to get fixed in a position and hardly move regardless of where the ball would go.

I think Chuck illustrated point by point what I feel NBA mechanics as well. I think the main reason for the NBA to have the mechanics they do is because everyone is trained very well to know what the other people are doing. I do not see that as the case at the high school level or the lower level college levels.

The NBA has used accelerated Lead philosophy since at least the mid 90's. Yes, when everyone is on the same page it is a thing of beauty. Obviously that's easier to do when you only have to worry about 60 officials.

[proref27]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

It makes a whole lot of sense if you're reporting to young, inexperienced adolescents who might not even be paying enough attention to know which official blew the whistle. The point of going to a "reporting box" is visibility to the table personnel. That's not as big a problem in the NBA b/c you have very professional table personnel. But at the HS and lower NCAA levels, it's better to go to the reporting area and be sure that the table knows who the foul is on. JMO (and I've used both sets of mechanics).

Well, they don't require you to go to the reporting box in the NCAA like they do HS. In NCAA you just have to clear the players. I can be just as clear to the table from either 28ft mark. I've used both sets of mechanics as well.

Because the foul is not "smacking upside the head". The foul is "illegal use of hands". Simple as that. And since you're tableside after reporting the foul, if the coach says "Where did he get him?", you can tell him. Not a big deal.

Or I could just say "#25 hit on the head" while demonstrating, and then there will be no reason for the coach to ask. Seems more efficient to me.

You make it sound like HS and NCAA officials are told to stay in one spot and officate from there (which used to be the NBA philosophy in the '70s, I'm pretty sure). NCAA and HS officials also move to get the best angle on plays. There are a still a lot of guys and gals who get stuck on the sideline while in the C position. But I think that is changing.

--Like anything else, it is changing slowly. It all trickles down from the top.

Never? I was at Ronnie Nunn's Orlando camp last summer and I don't remember that being taught.

--Didn't think he had been able to do his Nunn better camps for a couple of years now since he was the Supervisor. Also things have changed even more from just a couple of years ago. A week in an class taught by the NBA including a couple by Ronnie, was pretty clear...keep your body at an angle.

This is a great philosophy that Ronnie introduced. I don't think it means never be square to the sideline, but as the play moves to the basket, instead of simply sliding down the sideline, take a step onto the court and get a "Trail's look" at the play. I will agree that this should be adopted in HS and NCAA more than it is now.

--This is most certainly not "only on plays that move to the basket." Anytime the ball settles or pauses the slot is supposed to get topside, which often leads to him becoming the new Trail when the Lead rotates. Another instance is when you have high post play opposite lane line, and to help on both strong/weakside rebounding. There are still instances when you can drop down to referee action areas off ball, but when the ball comes over you shoulden't be low unless it's a quick shot or pass.

NCAA and HS try to do this as well. But most NCAA instructors don't like the ping-pong-ball effect of the Lead moving across the lane every time the ball swings.

-- And a lot more are just lazy and leave the slot with way to much to referee. Far too many...especially high school to not rotate fast enough. I see it so many times the ball in the opposite corner and the lead not even thinking "pinching the paint" much less rotating.

Something that you don't talk about is floor coverages, which I personally feel are better in the NCAA men's system. I don't like having to officiate all the way to the sideline while in the Lead position. Additionally, in NBA coverage, if the ball is in the post on the Lead's side and is passed out to the corner, the Lead shifts his/her view from the post to the corner while the Trail shifts his/her view from the corner to the post, which is right in front of the Lead.

NBA/women's NCAA coverage is easier, and I work men's ball. It is much easier for the Lead to see plays in the corner outside the 3pt line than the Trail. As the Lead your only having to pick up say an extra 2-3 ft below the bottom tip of circle (NBA) or FT line ext (Women's). In Men's and HS the trail has to see an extra 15 ft. Again, those plays in the deep corner are real tough for a Trail. I think it just makes more sense to have official closest to the play and with a better look referee the play, but that's just me I guess.

So we have two officials shifting their coverage when in NCAA, nobody has to shift. The Lead simply stays with the post activity (waiting for another entry pass), while the Trail (who already had responsibility outside the arc) picks up on-ball coverage. This makes a ton of sense to me.

I know NBA refs and NCAA women refs swear by their coverage scheme, but I don't like it. Again, JMO.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by proref27
Well, they don't require you to go to the reporting box in the NCAA like they do HS. In NCAA you just have to clear the players. I can be just as clear to the table from either 28ft mark. I've used both sets of mechanics as well.

"Clearing the players" is used (or is supposed to be used) for fouls in the backcourt. I think that in the frontcourt, they still want us to hustle to the reporting area and STOP to report. Bob will correct me if I've got that wrong.

Or I could just say "#25 hit on the head" while demonstrating, and then there will be no reason for the coach to ask. Seems more efficient to me.

Maybe, but as you yourself pointed out, the NCAA has a lot more officials to worry about than the NBA. And b/c of that, the NCAA wants its officials to be as standardized as possible. The easiest way to do that is to say that for any foul involving use of hands, use this signal. Then, since you're tableside, if there's a question, you can handle it. They simply want uniformity if possible. So we don't have guys hitting themselves on one side of the head, or the other, or on top, or in the face. . . Eventually, it just starts looking silly.

Didn't think he had been able to do his Nunn better camps for a couple of years now since he was the Supervisor. Also things have changed even more from just a couple of years ago. A week in an class taught by the NBA including a couple by Ronnie, was pretty clear...keep your body at an angle.

It was Nunn Better in '03, but changed for '04. Phil Robinson technically ran the camp, but it was still pretty clearly Ronnie's camp. I was there in July '04 and I promise you that nobody said "never be square to the sideline".

This ["trail mentality"] is most certainly not "only on plays that move to the basket."

I don't think I ever said it was. . .

And a lot more are just lazy and leave the slot with way to much to referee.

Frankly, this comment is pretty insulting. I work with a lot of different guys, and I work with very few "lazy" officials. I could count them on one hand in seven years. I don't think that's a fair comment. It sounds more like a bias against anything NCAA in preference for anything NBA.

Far too many...especially high school to not rotate fast enough. I see it so many times the ball in the opposite corner and the lead not even thinking "pinching the paint" much less rotating.

I agree wholeheartely with this. But this is a far cry from being lazy. It is more a result of two things:

1) Different philosophy among supervisors. As I said earlier, many NCAA supervisors don't like to see their Lead officials bouncing back and forth. So the officials are told not to rotate as much as the NBA guys; and

2) Lack of training at the HS level. Many HS guys just don't do a whole lot of 3-whistle games. Some states, like NC, use it for all HS games, and that's great. But it's hardly the standard.

I think you need to cut a little slack for these guys.

It is much easier for the Lead to see plays in the corner outside the 3pt line than the Trail.

That is obviously a matter of opinion, and I happen to disagree with you as much as I possibly could. I think it's about 1,000 times easier for the Trail to pick up that corner. JMO, you obviously disagree.

[proref27]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

"Clearing the players" is used (or is supposed to be used) for fouls in the backcourt. I think that in the frontcourt, they still want us to hustle to the reporting area and STOP to report. Bob will correct me if I've got that wrong.

Maybe, but as you yourself pointed out, the NCAA has a lot more officials to worry about than the NBA. And b/c of that, the NCAA wants its officials to be as standardized as possible. The easiest way to do that is to say that for any foul involving use of hands, use this signal. Then, since you're tableside, if there's a question, you can handle it. They simply want uniformity if possible. So we don't have guys hitting themselves on one side of the head, or the other, or on top, or in the face. . . Eventually, it just starts looking silly.

It was Nunn Better in '03, but changed for '04. Phil Robinson technically ran the camp, but it was still pretty clearly Ronnie's camp. I was there in July '04 and I promise you that nobody said "never be square to the sideline".

I don't think I ever said it was. . .

Frankly, this comment is pretty insulting. I work with a lot of different guys, and I work with very few "lazy" officials. I could count them on one hand in seven years. I don't think that's a fair comment. It sounds more like a bias against anything NCAA in preference for anything NBA.

--You are right here, it is unfair to say lazy, it is a case of less educated and experienced. Either way they leave the slot/c hanging. I don't have a bias against anything NCAA, but I do feel the NBA has the best mechanics in basketball, and if you were to ask Mr. Nunn he would probably say the same thing. In fact I heard him say it. But again, what else would the Supervisor of Officials think.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. But this is a far cry from being lazy. It is more a result of two things:

1) Different philosophy among supervisors. As I said earlier, many NCAA supervisors don't like to see their Lead officials bouncing back and forth. So the officials are told not to rotate as much as the NBA guys; and

2) Lack of training at the HS level. Many HS guys just don't do a whole lot of 3-whistle games. Some states, like NC, use it for all HS games, and that's great. But it's hardly the standard.

I think you need to cut a little slack for these guys.

--I agree, but far too many are not willing to accept or learn from a new philosophy when they know it comes from the NBA. I think this is why the NBA is really starting to make an effort to reach out with more NCAA conferences hoping they can get more people on the same page. You have to wonder at what point will the NCAA or CCA step in and say "stop going behind are backs and telling are conferences and officials to change!" Although even the CCA mechanics and NCAA disagree sometimes. For instance, the NCAA rule book says it's permissible for an official to not give the stop the clock signal on out of bounds calls and to just signal direction. The CCA manual specifically forbids this however.

That is obviously a matter of opinion, and I happen to disagree with you as much as I possibly could. I think it's about 1,000 times easier for the Trail to pick up that corner. JMO, you obviously disagree.

Maybe I am biased, but I just prefer a lot of the pro mechanics and coverage. At least I have had the experience to have an opinion one way or the other, and it sounds like you have too. At least you understand why they do what they do and believe it works on their level.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by proref27

At least I have had the experience to have an opinion one way or the other, and it sounds like you have too. At least you understand why they do what they do and believe it works on their level. [/B]

Exactly what experience in the pro game do you have? Iow, what pro leagues do you work in?

Just wondering.

[gsf23]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
2) What are the hash marks on the floor around 28' for?

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Apr 6th, 2005 at 04:36 AM] [/B]

I believe they are supposed to mark the boundry for the coaches box.

NBA Rule 3 Section IV
a. The coach's position may be on or off the bench from the 28' hash mark to the baseline. They are permitted between the 28' hash mark and the midcourt line to relay information to players but must return to the bench side of the 28' hash mark immediately or be called for an non-unsportsmanlike technical foul. A coach is not permitted to cross the midcourt line and violators will be assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul immediately. All assistants and trainers must remain on the bench. Coaches and trainers are not permitted to go to the scorer's table, for any reason, except during a deadball.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by gsf23

I believe they are supposed to mark the boundry for the coaches box.

NBA Rule 3 Section IV
a. The coach's position may be on or off the bench from the 28' hash mark to the baseline. They are permitted between the 28' hash mark and the midcourt line to relay information to players but must return to the bench side of the 28' hash mark immediately or be called for an non-unsportsmanlike technical foul. A coach is not permitted to cross the midcourt line and violators will be assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul immediately. All assistants and trainers must remain on the bench. Coaches and trainers are not permitted to go to the scorer's table, for any reason, except during a deadball.
[/B]

Thank you. Now what are the 28' marks on the opposite side for? I may be completely wrong (yet again), but it seems to me that if you're going to require marks for a coaches box, they'd only be required on the table side. The rules also allow you a team to throw-in from the 28' marks after a timeout in certain circumstances. I get the feeling the marks were originally there for another purpose, but have remained because they're still used for coaches boxes. I believe the throw-in rule is new. It used to be half-court I've been told. Am I crazy?

[proref27]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Thank you. Now what are the 28' marks on the opposite side for? I may be completely wrong (yet again), but it seems to me that if you're going to require marks for a coaches box, they'd only be required on the table side. The rules also allow you a team to throw-in from the 28' marks after a timeout in certain circumstances. I get the feeling the marks were originally there for another purpose, but have remained because they're still used for coaches boxes. I believe the throw-in rule is new. It used to be half-court I've been told. Am I crazy? [/B]

I've always assumed it was for throw-in's and general reference. They also have small hash marks that designate the FT line extended on the sidelines. I assume this is for throw-in's as well.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by proref27
You are right here, it is unfair to say lazy, it is a case of less educated and experienced.

I wouldn't say they are less educated; I would say that they are differently educated. As I keep saying, NCAA officials are often told by their supervisors that they don't want to see the Lead rotate as much as the NBA guys. They are being trained and educated a lot and very well; but simply (and intentionally) using a different philosophy from the NBA mechanics.

far too many are not willing to accept or learn from a new philosophy when they know it comes from the NBA.

Again, I agree with this. I think that (for better or worse), the NCAA is very slow to adopt anything that has an obvious NBA stamp on it.