Okay, well, I'm officially bored. Agmatbal isn't officially a troll, so I can't sit and formulate insults for him (or her?). The kids are out playing; the dishes aren't washed but the hot water heater is out so I can't do those. And I need to keep the phone tied up so the bill collectors can't get through (I'm using the site on dial-up, you see). So here's an interesting topic I've been cogitating for some time. Anyone for some real dialogue?

The general question is, "What's the difference between the men's game and the women's game?" But I want thoughtful and intelligent observations, not just, "Well women can't shoot," or "Men play a lot more above the rim."

Example: We know that the men run faster, but do they get more fast breaks? Do they handle the fast breaks differently?

I've heard both sides of whether women or men are more physical. What's anyone's opinion?

Are the differences different at various levels? I mean, do high school girls and boys differ in ways that college men and women don't differ?

I'd be interested in hearing comparisons that don't include value judgments. If you just plain don't like womens ball, we don't need to hear that. Just don't comment. If you think women are better or worse (loaded words) then try to figure out the specifics of why and post that, not the judgments.

This is a discussion question, not a vote. What are the differences between men's and women's basketball?

LOL!!

Yea, or I'm just having a good day. Or some combination of the two.

Meantime, in all seriousness, why does girls ball have more held balls? Is it just how they're coached?

Wow, you use dial up? Cool.

Anyways, good question. In my opinion there a number of subtle factors that many people tend to ignore that account for almost all of the differences we see between the 2 games. Here are 4 that come immediately to m................((((((((((((......
.........&&&&&&&&&&&############.................. .....@@@\
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@(((((((((((@@@@@>@#)>>>......c arrier lost

To paraphrase George Carlin, why do you need a hot water heater? Why do you want to heat hot water? Wouldn't a cold water heater make more sense? Or maybe you should get a hot water cooler. :D

As to your question, one of the most notable differences is that boys always shoot layups on breakaways while girls pull up at about 10 feet and shoot set shots. This one still puzzles me.

WTH is a hot water heater? :D

There's no need to heat hot water. It's already hot! :D

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 30th, 2005 at 10:33 PM]

Here's a difference:

Men's regional finals:

Arizona vs. Illinois attendance: 16,957
West Virginia vs. Louisville attendance: 15,896
Wisconsin vs. North Carolina attendance: 30,132
Michigan St. vs. Kentucky attendance: 16,239


Women's regional finals:

Duke vs. LSU attendance: 5,086
Baylor vs. North Carolina attendance: 3,213
Rutgers vs. Tennessee attendance: 6,452
Stanford vs. Michigan St. attendance: 2,475

I usually do the dishes in the sink, but that's just me.

Held balls is one difference, for sure. AP is one of the best rule changes ever. I have done mostly JV ball, but I have noticed if a boys team is really bad they still score 30 points. A bad girls team might get hung up in the teens. A winning boys team in a low scoring game will be in the 40s. High 20s or low 30s is not rare on the girls side.

body control! you know what i mean.

What puzzles me at the HS level is that in a girls game, the one girl brings down a rebound, and the other 9 girls on the court decide that they MUST have that ball RIGHT NOW. Held ball ensues. In a boys game, a boy comes down with a rebound, and everyone else goes to the other end of the floor. I just don't get it. Girls see an opponent with the ball and say, "Geez, now I need that ball." Guys see an opponent with the ball and go play defense. I just don't get it.

On the whole, at every level, the guys tend to have much better body control overall. There are a lot less guys hitting the floor than girls in your everage game. Don't know why, but it seems true at every level. Want proof? How many times have you seen a girls' basketball player with knee pads? How many guys wear knee pads?

The only two relevant differences between the boys game and the girls game are:

1) The boys game is generally faster. There are some girls who can run fast and maintain ball control, but there are many more boys who can. So almost always a boys game will be played with faster plays.

2) Girls simply cannot elevate. There is no such thing as a jump shot in a girls game, let alone a dunk. The girls game is played almost entirely on the floor. Doesn't make the game better or worse, necessarily, just different.

Here in Iowa it's because we have different rules for girls (I wish the two associations would combine, I hate starting a game with a coin flip). But seriously, I think alot of it has to do with the speed and strength. I also think that, remember we're speaking in general terms here, boys spend more time developing their skills when they are younger. While we're on the subject, it seems to me that in girls games, the players seem to be one extreme or the other. What I mean is that they'll either be super agressive and commit tons of fouls, or they'll be super passive and not want to touch each other. Anyone else notice this?

One of the biggest differences is the expectations of each game.

On the boy's side, contact is usually expected and the coaches seem to get on their players for making bad plays.

On the girl's side, if the girl breathes on the ball handler, then the coach cannot understand why there is not a foul.

No one is surprised if a guy falls on his behind. If a girl does it, they think she is going to die if she falls down.

That might sound bad but the expectations of the sexes are still very different. I do not like girl's basketball not because of their ability to play. I do not like girl's basketball because of the expectations of those that play it and the coaches and fans that are involved in.

Peace

Poses. I have no idea why :confused:

In boys ball, A1 has thrown an outlet pass before B1 has a chance to grab at the ball.

Coached both sides of the fence. I agree with Chuck and would add:

The girls' game is definitely slower up and down the floor. Girls aren't as good at creating their own shots off the dribble. Girls don't move laterally as well or quickly as boys do, leaving them vulnerable to outside shots if they play a zone. On the other hand, girls are better at hitting their free throws. Girls are more likely to follow coaching instructions and are more willing to learn. More jump balls in the girls game.

Boys are less likely to give up the ball once they put it down inside the arc - even when they are in trouble. Boys don't shoot as well as the girls from the free throw line. Never had to yell, "SHOOT THE BALL!!!" with boys. With better speed and elevation, boys can force their opponents to rush or alter their shots, even in a zone. Since they watch ESPN way more than the girls, boys are definitely less coachable and always know more than anyone else.

And we have a tie... Neither box-out nearly enough to make this coach happy.

[Edited by PGCougar on Mar 31st, 2005 at 12:50 AM]

I think this is good. I hope it continues.

Also, I think it's clear that we're talking about generalities, and not individual players, or even individual teams. Even so, I'm struck by one observation, and that is that I see differences between hs and college that are much greater in girls than in boys. Others here, so far, havent mentioned those.

For instance, in hs girls, there ARE a lot more held balls, and the lower you go in age and ability, the more there are. But in watching all the college ball this weekend I see far, far fewer held balls thanin the hs game. In fact, it's nearly equal to what I've seen on the men's side.

What I'd like to do is have a sort of check list like in the front of the "Find Waldo..." books, and then watch for the differences over this coming weekend. So far, we've got (these are the items that I agree need to be considered)

Speed,
Elevation
(Held Balls)
Coachability
Girls less likely to turn a fast break into a lay-up
Boys less likely to give up the ball inside the arc

Let's discuss the others further.

Maybe in the "average" game this is true, but I don't think it's true at every level. I haven't seem more girls on the floor in the TV games over the last week.

About knnee pads, I don't see them much around here. Almost never.

UHHHH, I disagree big time. Guys are on the floor way more than girls. Guys are more willing to take the charge and more willing to sacrifice their body for the ball. I guess girls wear kneepads cause they don't want to get floorburn, gotta have pretty knees for the beach.

Again, in generalities... The big difference you allude to is probably due to the depth of the talent pool and the number of players at each level. Although there are equal numbers of boys and girls playing at both the HS and College levels, there isn't an equal depth of talent. Since the talent pool isn't as deep for girls as it is for boys, you often see situations where boys that are pretty good players getting cut from their JV and Varsity teams while on the girls side you see players that are sub-par for JV and Varsity making their teams.

So in HS, the talent difference between the best and worst players on any squad is more noticeable in girls ball than in boys. Result is inconsistent skill levels througout girls HS ball. But the 50 to 1 cut to make it to college weeds out those marginal players on the girls side. This probably explains the improved play at the college level when compared to HS levels and below. In fact, if you look at the mid-major D1 programs versus the top tier D1 programs, you see far more parity in boys than in girls. Again, I believe this points to the depth of the talent pool.

It's late so I hope this made sense...

[Edited by PGCougar on Mar 31st, 2005 at 02:48 AM]

Girls pass the ball and usually catch it two handed. In general, girls are more fumdamentally sound, and boys are more showy. This probably arises from boys playing more pickup games while girls usually play more structured games.

Also, very few girls shoot a true jump shot. They all look like they learned from watching the same video... more of a jumping set shot. This is probably more accurate, but needs more room to release, which helps explain why they pass more and don't usually shoot off the dribble.

Seaking High School:

Usually on the girls side, you will see only 1 or 2 shooters from outside because many of them lack the strength to shoot from 3 point range. There will usually be another 1 or 2 who will try but they have to throw in an extra step to generate the power....tweet..travel.

While a girls team still might play well together, they may only have a couple of really athletic players. A boys team will have a half dozen or more good athletes. Thus, we have a faster game on the boys side because they have more teammates to run with.

You never have to talk to players in a girls game and tell them to pull up their shorts.

Junker, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here so please explain before I make an @$$ out of myself on here...what exactly do you mean you start the game w/ a coin flip?

All the differences stated so far are absolutely correct.
Another big difference I see, and this goes directly to the flow of the game at both levels, is that the Men/Boys see a lot more of the court and they have the physical ability(most of the time) to react accordingly. Women/Girls appear to only see the defender and one other player.
i.e. 2 on 1 breaks - I hardly ever see the female of the species hit the trail coming in from behind.
I have been asked this before and I have noticed it more and more over the past couple of seasons.
It appears to be a subtle difference on the surface but if you pay attention to it, this is in part why the held ball count is so high in Womens/Girls. They don't see enough of the court to anticipate 2 oplays away.
AAR

A fast boys game is a good workout. A fast girls game is not.

Girls keep their shirts tucked in.

You might hear an "I'm sorry" from a girl when she fouls hard. In a boys game, the boy might step on the kid after the hard foul just to make sure he felt it. :D

There is more team play and less one-on-one in a girls game.

Z

Biggest difference I see is the gap between good and average teams/players...guy's side: good team vs. average team might be a 8-10 point difference, while on the women's side it will be 20 or more points difference.

You heard right. There is no jump ball to start an Iowa girls high school game. A coin is flipped to decide possession.

Continue your laughing now. :)

I think the funny part is that you have to have a coin flip to see who gets to call it.

Someone brought up an excellent point about skill development at an early age. I think this has a lot to do with the differences in the game at a higher level. It is very likely to see a group of young boys playing a pickup game of basketball, much less likely that you would see young girls doing the same thing. As with most sports, the best players tend to be the ones that have been playing the sport for the longest time. On average, boys tend to play much more than girls over the course of their youth. Around here, this is certainly true in the rec leagues. The younger leagues are filled with boys and a few girls. This probably has a lot to do with the differences in the two games by the time the kids make it to high school.

The coachability point is an interesting one. I have never really noticed that before. Although I have noticed that some coaches try to coach the girls beyond their athletic ability. The two games are undoubtedly different, but some coaches try to coach them the same way.

Sure about that?
 

Do you consider it fundamental to bring the ball down after you take control of the ball? Do you consider it fundamental to slap at the ball during a rebound, instead of just grabbing the ball? Do you consider it fundamental to try to dribble through 3 defenders in the lane, and then complain you were fouled by the defenders that did not need to move to stop the ball?

Not sure what is so fundamental about girl's basketball with all the head balls and many of the decision making that I see in girl's basketball.

Peace

I know we're talking generalities here, but I do think the girls play at a "lower" level due to starting later in life. Therefore, they have a tendancy to be a little more fundementally sound to make up for the skill difference. However, I have seen a few girl's H.S. teams that could easily beat several boy's teams I've seen this season.

Another thing I've noticed (once again, in general), boys get mad while girls get even. For example, if you get some chippy play in a boys game, the players will stare at each other, growl a little, say "Your momma!", and it's over. With girls, there may be a wayward elbow or hard screen, but the retaliation may not happen until two quarters later. I've found I have to be a little more aware of that.

more thoughts
 

One thing to consider is that for the most part the women's game has not evolved at the same pace as the men's game. However, thanks to Pat Summit's dominant teams for the past twenty-five years and Title 9, more resources have been given to the development of women's basketball. Look at what has happened the last 15 years. There is more than two excellent teams (Tenn & La Tech), now there is UConn, Tenn, Stanford, Purdue, Mich St and the like. don't forget the WNBA is only 6 years old. Also, if you have noticed in this years tourney, not every higher seed got as far as expected. Translated, it means that one any given night....more of the less talented teams have a better chance than in past years.

This topic has been discussed nationally, and it has a lot to do with the physical make up of the sexes. The women's game has gotten faster, not faster than the men, but in relation to the previous athletes. They will probably never have the high flying action that the men have, but they will continue to evolve. Camps are now aimed specifically for the women and even for grade school girls.

Now, having said all that, I worked a college, in conference game this year where the score was 54 - 8 at HALFTIME!

[Edited by icallfouls on Mar 31st, 2005 at 11:57 AM]

Sorry this is a long post
 

Before becoming an official, I coached both boys and girls varsity sports (basketball and softball) for about ten years. I am going to support what others have already said, but try to connect the ideas.

I think there is one big differences, and that is the amount of time the boys participate outside of the season and practice time, including watching games on television.

Boys play a lot without somebody coaching them. They become more creative and find moves and styles that work for them in pick-up ball. This goes a long way toward explaining why the boys games look different from girls games. Boys demonstrate a larger repertoire of skills and moves and individual flexibility, and the girls try to follow the coach's guidance, which looks more "fundamental". Coaches ask boys to stop doing things that have made them successful "on the playground" because they may not work in a more structured game or doesn't fit into the coach's "system" or team concept. They have developed habits. They are resistant to change and more difficult to coach. Boys watch more hoops on television. They try to emulate players, echo things that announcers and analysts say, and think they know more than their local coach or official because the heard it from somebody associated with an NBA game.

As much as I hate to say it, the average girl may be more coachable because she has lower self-esteem than the average boy (at least with regard to athletic ability). This makes girls more coachable because they are more apt to believe that the coach knows more than they do.

I'm glad that most of you don't realize what a pleasure it is to do a good women's college game. More games for us. I have done plenty of men's games too, so I have perspective on both sides. Some things that are different: for the most part, women just play the game. They don't waste time complaining about calls. They don't waste time talking trash to their opponents or trying to show how macho they are. Sure they don't play above the rim, but they play the right way. They still know how to shoot a 16 footer. Make a bounce pass. I'm not talking about a lower high school level, but good collegiate players. I just have more fun doing a good women's game.

Let me put it this way: I've never had a boy come up to be during a game and ask me to watch a certain player on the other team because that player "wasn't being very nice to me."

One of the problems with female athletics in general is they don't support their own as shown in the above attendance counts. Girls will show up to watch the boys game, but not the girls game. Even at higher levels (College - WNBA), there are just as many or more men supporting the female athletes than women


I enjoy officiating a "well played" boys or girls game. I do find I call them differently. Doing a girls game I call a closer more fundamental game (which seems to be what they expect.) Refereeing a boys game, the expectation is to let a little more incedental contact go and have more flow in the game.

In general, girls and their coaches seem to want all contact called and are not as concerned about game flow.

Just MY Opinion

These kinds of observations are very interesting to me and just what I want the thread to be concentrated on.

Your observation about calling closely, and game flow, doesn't match with my experience. My biggest varsity game this season had a team that ended up second in the state, and a team in their league who could very easily have upended them. My evaluator was critical that we called it too tight. He thought we should have let a lot more go. They seemed to want to allow any mugging that didn't actually put them on the floor, and my evaluator said we should have called it that way.

I wonder if it's a regional thing. Around here, I think girls get away with a lot more than boys.

Yeah, sure. :rolleyes:

The only game I threw out a player for throwing a punch was a girl's game. I have had to stop many girls from getting in the face of another player. It is clear you have never officiated a game in my area. You would see those things rather differently.

Peace

Yea...girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice...but, there are exceptions...


http://www.killsometime.com/Video/vi...deo=Girl-Fight

This was video taped by an official that had just officiated a basketball game between two heated rivilary's in Rec League on a Saturday afternoon in Whicata, Kansas last year on 4/1/04.

Yea, things have always been particularly rugged in Whicata.

Now, could we get back to some non-judgemental comparisons between men's and women's or boy's and girl's basketball?

Thank you.

Re: Sure about that?
 

Um... If you haven't seen these very same things in boy's basketball, then you haven't seen much boys basketball either...

Chris....

But, you do have to tell them to tuck their jerseys in more often. (Me thinks it has something to do with being more self conscious about their waistlines. The jersey being out or "tucked in"...then "bloused" to have the extra material overlap the waistband creates a less defined waistline.) For some officials, this "leaving your shirts untucked" might help cover that 'beer belly'. :D:

Guys leave their jerseys untucked because it's an "attitude" thing! :rolleyes:

They could make those jersey lengths down to the ankles...players would still find a way to get it untucked.

moving on.....

wl

Posted by Rutledge:
The only game I threw out a player for throwing a punch was a girl's game. I have had to stop many girls from getting in the face of another player. It is clear you have never officiated a game in my area. You would see those things rather differently.

What happened in the game to get it to that point? Was it because, as I've seen far too often, there were officials on the game who refused to call what needed to be called because it's a stupid girls' game? And they're just trying to get out of there as fast as possible by not blowing the whistle? I've heard officials say things like " What a great game--only an hour and 5 minutes"--meanwhile all the players are black and blue from contact that was let go. I'm not saying things can't happen in any game, anywhere; but generally in a well officiated women's game, they don't cry wolf nearly as much as the men. And when they do complain, it's for about 5 seconds and they're done. Men keep on forever.
Another great aspect in the women's game is the lack of egos amongst the officials. They are much more intent on just getting plays right and trusting each other. Too many egos on the men's side trying to "one-up" each other.

socalreff,

I am not seeing your point. I was not talking about not calling things because of time. I was not calling things because the it would be against the rules to just call things when a defender is just standing there. I do not care how long a game takes. But I do not want to have to call more things because girls are taught that any contact there has to be a call. That is the same way I call things when I work boy's games. The rules are the same on both sides.

Peace

I didn't say "always" or "never". I also don't agree with you about girls jerseys untucked more but we may be splitting hairs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
[B]Chris....

Must be just a regional thing! :confused:

wl

I think some of the differences we're discussing here may be local or regional. It's very possible that in one locale the attitude toward keeping the jersey tucked in is much different from what it is 1000 miles away. I also think it depends a lot on the coaches' attitudes, and that may vary.

I do think girls tend to hold a grudge in longer. Things can skate along fine, and all of a sudden one lashes out. I've seen that, too. Boys are more open about conflict. Generally. Any particular individual may do things differently but as a rule, I've seen this pattern too.

Juulie, for the most part I think the "regional" argument used on this board is usually a bunch of crap (mostly just one particular member's way of getting out of having to admit that he is full of $hit again)...but in this case I think we have an advantage over some regions of the country...the Oregon City tournament and the one at UW in the summer are two of the top 3 girl's tournaments in the country - plus we have some pretty amazing programs in the area - not just HS but also some of the college programs (Seattle Pacific playing for the D-2 national championship, Oregon and UW and Gonzaga all having great seasons the last few years, etc)...so I think the level of girl's ball might be higher around here than in some other areas. Could be why we don't see the same things some of these people are posting about.

I can agree with that. Seems that with boys, they will "get you back" within a minute or so. With girls, they might wait a couple of quarters or even get you back the next game. My Daughter remembers opponents jersey numbers from this past season and what they did to upset her.

Cheezz..... :rolleyes:

regions?
 

You can believe if you want that girls basketball is better in the Northwest, but every time I've seen teams come to SoCal they get killed. I think it doesn't get any better than SoCal--boys and girls. As far as the girls not talking trash or being better sports---it's not without exceptions. But in general, they are much better about letting us do our job and just playing the game. For me it's much more enjoyable to be able to just ref the game without all the extraneous nonsense that has become far too prevalent in boys and mens basketball. Sure it's a challenge, but it's one we as officials shouldn't be putting up with, especially on the high school level.

Re: regions?
 

That's funny - the teams from SoCal that I see come up here always get killed...didn't see any HS teams this season, but had several small college teams - CSUBakersfield, Chapman, and a couple others I can't remember right now, and they all got thumped...oh well.

For someone with only with only 8 posts you sure have stuffed your foot in your mouth a bunch. I count at least 3 out of the 8.

I grew up and played ball in SoCal, Orange County to be exact and am quite familiar with the caliber of basketball. Although it is quite good, I would not say or imply that it is better there than anywhere else.

I now live and officiate in Houston. We have hosted the Nike/Academy Invitational over the last three years and the SoCal teams have not faired that well here. The year previous Fairfax and Mater Dei both got dumped by a Houston Team (Milby HS). This year Westchester had their butts handed to them by Christ the King out of NY.

Just a suggestion, you might want to post with a little less "attitute" and your comments and thoughts might be received better.

[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Apr 1st, 2005 at 01:21 PM]

BBall Junkie
 

Okay. No more attitude. I grew up on the East Coast so I'm pretty well versed on the national basketball scene. I'm not necessarily talking about just the top teams in certain areas. I'm talking in general about the overall depth in SoCal. Lots and lots of players. I've done plenty of tourneys with teams from all over the country and know that there is tremendous talent anywhere you go.

I see this in lower levels especially. Take Varsity vs JV vs Frosh vs Jr High - the skill levels between two teams can be huge.

I had a JV girls game last year with a final score of 56-11. The coach with 56 did everything she could to keep the score reasonable, put in subs early, worked half court offense, took of press. Just an overmatched team.

I had some boys blowouts but none like this.

One of the biggest differences is what happens in the playoffs with both sides. Everyone in our state makes the playoffs. Teams are seeded by Sectionals and there are 16 sectionals. It is usually very predictable who is going to go to the State Finals (last 8 teams) almost every year. You can count on 2 or 3 teams making it from the beginning of the season. On the boy's side upsets happen all the time. A team in the regional I worked went all the way to the Super-Sectional and no one would have ever guessed they would win in the regional. Forty point wins almost never happen, even with the teams that barely win a single game. Blowouts are common on the girl's side. The main reason I think this is the case, the boy's play year round and have been playing the game since they could walk. Girl's pick up the game much later than boys and the better players seemed to play more with boy's as they were growing up. They talked about this on the McDonald's All-American Girl's game. Almost all those players had a brother or their father played basketball with them a lot and influenced their games. In other words they play like the guys and they dominate their fellow girl opponents. The better girl's players do not shy away from contact and in many cases are fearless. Many boy's play football and basketball contact does not at all faze them.

There are good players all over the country. I know this area in the last 10 years on the Women's side there have been several Illinois players that have won national championships. Whether they were on Purdue, Notre Dame or Tennessee, there were key players on each of these teams NC teams. Who cares which area is better? I have watched tournament games on TV and the game looks pretty much the same as it does here.

Peace

the girls game i usually ref tend to be more aggessive then the boys games i think it because guys dont want to touch each other

Re: Sure about that?
 

By fundamentally sound, I did not mean it necessarily as a complement. I see a lot of girls games, and I see many girls that move and shoot just like they leaned from a book, and not from playing. Most girls look like they learned to shoot from a Tom Nordland Swish Method tape.

Boys tend to put more of their own individuality and personality into their game. Whether or not that's a good thing depends on the player.

BTW, the miscues you mention are more a result of upper body strength development than training. And I rarely see girls try to dribble between three defenders. They usually pass in a situation like that. And "Where's the foul, ref?" is the cry of boys far more often than girls.

Re: Re: Sure about that?
 

I have heard that in several City League girls games. A fellow official had a girl say that to him and replied "WHACK" - "Here it is."

I agree that the higher the level of play, the more coaches and players accept incidental (and more) contact.

I believe many of the better girls players are the ones who regularly scrimmage and play pick-up games with the boys. Even some college girls teams scrimage against boys. (I believe I read an article recently saying the NCAA was thinking about prohibiting that practice - Probably better saved for a new topic)

Yes, we have to call the game the way our evaluators want us to, but I don't like for the style of play to change what I perceive is or is not a foul.

In my area I don't think the girls get away with more than the boys.

About knnee pads, I don't see them much around here. Almost never. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think the knee pads may be an appearance thing. It's true, many girls were knee pads and I don't remember ever seeing a guy wear knee pads, BUT... to a guy a bloody knee is a badge of honor or courage, to a girl it's an ugly scar that will detrat from her appearance.

The biggest difference I see between girls and boys ball is body checking. You know the i'm going to straddle your leg and push my body on yours in girls. If they guys do that they just throw an arm.

Anyway my 2c

Kenny

I think the knee pads may be an appearance thing. It's true, many girls were knee pads and I don't remember ever seeing a guy wear knee pads, BUT... to a guy a bloody knee is a badge of honor or courage, to a girl it's an ugly scar that will detrat from her appearance. [/B][/QUOTE]

As a girls youth coach I encourage my younger players to wear knee pads. Knee injuries are 50% more common in girl athletes then in boys. There is 50% more twisting motion of the knee in untrained athletes on impact with the floor, resulting in greater injuries to young knees. How often do you see girls on the floor? Lots in my games, therefore there is no harm and maybe some good in having the knee protected from impact with the floor.

There is a considerable physical difference in some girls at the same age and grade. I can have 5'10" 170 pound girls in 7th grade playing against 4'11" girls that weigh 80 pounds soaking wet. I've seen my small, light weight point guards fly from contact. I also know how painful a knee cap bruise can be and how it can prohibit full range of motion. Knee pads can prevent those injuries. They aren't just to prevent a cut that looks bad at the beach.

I am a stong advocate of knee pads and strength training, including learning to jump and land properly, foot work and running by young girls. Girl athletes have a higher incidence of torn ACL's then boys because of the way the muscles are arranged, the fact that they get a later start in sports then boys and the anatomical differences of pelvic width, muscle strength differences between quads and ham strings, and other differences.

I don't require that knee pads be worn on my teams, but many, many girls in Ohio wear them in youth leagues, so it's not a big deal. The older the girls get and the more skilled they get, the less they seem to end up on the floor. By middle school the knee pads have almost disappered from the game.

Coach Gbert

Is this because girl's knees are generally closer to the floor to begin with than boy's knees?

I mean because of the height difference. Get your mind out of the gutter.

I think yours is the only mind in the gutter!

Yes - but it's such a nice gutter.

Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here....

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/...s/03_peasn.jpg

I doubt knee pads will prevent any major injury such as an ACL tear. The ACL is almost always torn before the knee ever hits the floor. (I know, I tore mine). Same thing with meniscus and other injurys. It's infrequently the contact with the floor.

The biggest difference between boys and girls is anatomy. In fact, it's not really a strict gender differnce that makes the injury more prevalent in girls. Boys and girls with the same knee geometry have the same rate of ACL tears. One of the biggest factors is a narrow intracondylar notch...the space between the two rounded areas on the end of the femur. It just happens that more girls have a narrow intra-condylar notch.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 4th, 2005 at 04:44 PM]

I do not if that is entirely true.

I was told by a managing trainer that females get more knee tears or problems as a result of their body structure. According to this trainer women have bigger hips and their knees tend to be forced inward, which puts more stress on their knees. He said that girl's or women tend to have many more knee tears than boy's or men. Of course it is not scientific, but I have seen more girls at the HS level lose most of the season or all of a season with ACL and MCL tears. Of course it happens to many boys as well, but it seems to be more so in football. For some reason it does not happen to boys that often as it does girls. I watch the NCAA tournament and it seems like every other game they talk about some player that did not play a great deal of the season because of a knee injury. I cannot think of any major player on the men's game that even gets an injury and they lose a great deal of their career as a result. There are a lot of top women’s players that have had those type of injuries. It sounds like what this trainer told me recently has some truth to it.

Now I am just passing on information. I hope no one will start taking this as a genetics issue. I am just sharing what someone said to me that is much more educated on this issue than I am. I do know that Candace Parker (Tennessee Player from Naperville, Illinois) had 3 knee injuries, two on one knee. I cannot think of any boy in our area that has had that kind of number of knee injuries.

Peace

I too doubt that knee pads will "prevent" an ACL tear, I do know that there is more twisting motion of the knee in girls when an untrained athlete hits the floor. That may or may not contribute to an ACL tear. It can't hurt that there is a pad prior to the knee impacting the floor. Increased training on proper mechanics of running and jumping, landing and footwork can all help to prevent ACL tears and knee injuries. Girls generally do not have the benefit of this training, but jump into (no pun intended) sports without proper warm-up and with coaches who emphasize winning instead of player/athlete development and training.

Wide hips, knees that tend to knock as girls grow, the hormones of puberty that contribute to lax ligaments and improper training are also responsible for greater incidences of knee injuries in girls.

Girls can choose to wear them or not. I advise parents of the literature and research that I have regarding knee injuries and let them make the decision. I was pointing out that they don't hurt and others in sports medicine feel they are more usefull then just preventing unsightly knees (something my 9u - 14u players don't care about anyway).


Coach Gbert


[Edited by coachgbert on Apr 4th, 2005 at 04:32 PM]

Coach, when I had my ACL done my doctor & physical therapists told me OTC knee braces are useless in preventing knee injuries related to twisting or hyper-extension, which is what we're talking about. After my surgery I wore a brace designed to protect against these things for about a year, actually longer than I needed it but I was scairdy-fraid to play ball without it! :) It was custom fit & I recall it cost about $1200, maybe more, at the time. Obviously strengthening the hamstrings, butt & quads is the best way to prevent these injuries.

I do agree wearing knee pads will save a lot of wear & tear on the kneecaps & covering tendon if you expect to be hitting the floor. I just wouldn't tell these kids parents that they'll protect against anything else. And attaboys for being aware enough to make it part of your practice/training!