Are we sure that was a travel?

it looked ugly but I wasn't sure myself. Replay was still too fast to really see it. Who's got it on TiVo and can slow it way down ???

i hate to say it, but that was not a travel. sorry boys, i think we missed it. oh well, sh*t happens.

mighty

Yep.

Oh well.

I couldn't believe it was called at that point in the game!

The question is was this type of traveling called all game (if it was a travel depending on where he picked up his dribble)? I didn't watch most of the game so I don't know.

From my seat, looked like two steps, but you are right, almost too fast to tell. But, Rafferty counted three, so it might have been. TiVo'ers will let us know for sure.

Greg Gumball just said it wasn't a travel so it must not have been.... ;-)

I think he anticipated a foul, and blew the whistle when there wasn't any contact. Had to make a call.

But that's okay. 'Nova got plenty of calls down the stretch.

Credit to 'Nova. They wanted it more.

Just didn't get it.

CBS just replayed it in slow motion after the game and one of the guys commented on it and for once, I agree with the tv guys..."Dribble, one step, two steps...not a travel." I also hate to say it, I think we missed this one.

From my vantage point, it was a travel. I only saw one replay on this play. But it looked like he took the ball, turned while moving both feet, then got his feet together again before he made a dribble. Now I am sure the replay will be shown a few times later this evening. I might change my mind, but it looked like a travel at first glance to me.

Peace

I think the fact of the matter is that the way the game ended, I know Nova got calls down the stretch, but the phone lines and internet boards across the land will be jammed talking about the travel call. No one remembers the missed free throws and missed layups, with an ending like this they remember "the travel call." Thats way the majority of the fans were booing when the game was over. Facts of life, i've been there and until youve been there you dont know what its like. I sure O'neil is kicking himself as we speak, but like i said sh#t happens and we are not perfect.

Mighty

He gathered just as his left foot left the floor, so his dribble ended with neither foot on the floor.

Right foot was down first for the pivot foot, left foot and up.

It was very close and the ball was gathered away from O'Neil, but it was too close to call in that situation and Tivo showed it was not a travel.

So you think there wasn't a foul? My husband thought there was a good solid one in the paint. I could easily see no calling the minimal contact there, but he thought it was a good hard one. Never mind that the ball went in the basket. I finally convinced him that since the travel came first, the contact didn't matter. But you think it wasn't a foul? Nice to know I'm right once in a while.

Jeff, you are gonna change your mind.

First glance, second gance, nine thousandth glance...

Oh well..

Sigh.

What travel?

Then it was a REALLY late whistle, because the walk was not called on the spin to start the dribble, but after the shot was released.

No, I didn't think there was a foul. Looked like McCants completely avoided him to me and it certainly didn't affect the shot. I really believe he anticipated the call.

But it was called pretty tight all night, so who knows.

Yes it was traveling. He did not call traveling in the lane. The official called traveling by the 3 point line. You guys are listening too much to the commentators. That is just when the players stopped. Tommy O'Neal made that call, good freakin call. I will tell him when I see him this summer.

Peace

Okay, then, reword the whole durn thing.

Since there wasn't a travel... (does that work?)

...should there have been a foul? I didn't think so, my husband did. What's your opinion, Danny boy?

That may be, but he traveled way before the contact. The guy did a complete spin and stepped before he dribbled the ball.

I did not see the play live. So that might be why I feel the way I do.

Peace

Why is the lead watching a drive that started BEHIND the 3 point line? All Tom should have on that is the help defender, that's trail's call.

Rutledge my man, its alright to be wrong once in awhile. Once again, we are human man and if we were perfect i sure the hell wouldnt be officiating basketball. lol

Mighty

Why not? The ball was in the corner. He has ever right to watch that play. That is really the case when the ball goes deep in the corner like that. The Trail might get screened and the end line is threatened. What else was he supposed to watch? BTW, that particular official teaches that mechanic. He has told me about that the past two years at his camp.

Peace

I'm afraid you're wrong, Jeff. I've watched it again and again. He didn't call the travel until after he left the floor to release the shot. Then, O'Neal pointed into the lane. The whistle was over 2 seconds after the spin move outside the arc.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 26th, 2005 at 12:57 AM]

I am telling you what I saw and what might have been called. I did not see the play live. I did not hear the whistle. But he traveled way before he got to the lane. How can everyone rip apart these commentators, and then listen to them when a touch call is in place? Not sure I understand that logic.

Peace

I just watched it again and the trail is looking right at it from the time he touched it to the time he shot, and had a completely open look. It was not in the corner either, it was between the block and the FT line extended.

The call was 100% trails.

[Edited by blindzebra on Mar 26th, 2005 at 12:59 AM]

I'm telling ya, he anticipated a foul that didn't happen. It's a shame we can't see him when the hand goes up. I would love to know if it's an open hand or a fist.

I will ask him myself this summer. I know that will be talked about around here because he lives in this area. So we can find out then. If not then maybe before the summer. I do not care when the whistle was blown, he traveled way before that point. If that is not what he called, not sure we are going to solve that issue here tonight. He has talked about other games he worked and mistakes he has made. We will also see when the officials come out for the next game.

Peace

I see the play that Jeff thinks was the travel. The whistle was really, really late, if that was what happened. You can't see hte ref in the pic. Maybe he blew his whistle out of his mouth at first?

On the other hand, the trail did have a very good look, much better than the lead who had at least three players, and the body of the dribbler, between him and the ball.

I think it was a mistake by the ref. Doesn't happen often.

They'll probably have another angle by tomorrow's games.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. It is not in the Lead's primary, but officiating is not just about what is going on in your primary all the time. You do not have to agree, but the lead has the ball inside the 3 point line. He has to know what might happen with the ball near his area. Again, this is what is taught often at camps I have attended.

Peace

I think there's a strong possibility that he traveled on the spin move. Can't argue there. But truthfully, that's not what he called. He points directly into the lane where the shooter left the floor.

But I'll take it! :)

Jeff, in all seriousness, I hope you'll ask, and that you'll let us know what happened. It would be so interesting to get the "insider's" point of view.

And, hey, you put that quote from the beer commercial into your sig line. We are friends for life!

Changing topics
 

Jeff, why are they playing the regional in Rosemont as opposed to the UC? Do you know?

You understand mostly what I am saying. As I said I did not see the play live. I did not hear the whistle in the replay. But the kid stutter stepped then decided to dribble while taking another step. I could see an official waiting a second or being caught off guard. That is really the case if the area of coverage is in an area where both officials might pick up the play. It is possible that the trail did not get a great look at it and the lead made the call as a result. I think we should not forget a basketball fundamental, "The ball is already dead before the whistle is blown."

Peace

Juulie girl, my opinion is there was no travel. Without a doubt.

I don't agree with your husband that there was a foul. IMO that sequence deserved no whistle.

Is there really anyone who thinks they can see from the replay when the ball was held? I've watched it a number of times, and I simply cannot see much of the left hand or arm at all, in relation to when the left foot leaves the ground. (I'm putting to the side the possibility that it was called on the spin.)

Either way, a question and a comment. What the heck was Villanova doing going for a two with less than 10 seconds and two timeouts? Did Wright really plan on making two baskets in ten seconds, or think it was easier to do than making one three. O'Neill is going to get lots of heat, but at some point someone needs to acknowledge that bad coaching exposes you to bad breaks. The comment is that the whistle just came way too late. You are simply never going to be able to convince your average fan that the call was not influenced by the fact that the ball went in the goal.

Just a freaking bummer is all.

Re: Changing topics
 

DePaul is the host school for the regional. The city of Rosemont also wanted the regional to be named the "Rosemont Regional," but the NCAA didn't go for it.

I will ask for sure. I am sure by then he will have heard the criticism and will say something either on his own or it will be asked. Maybe you guys are right and he called the travel near the lane, but I am not sure about that. Again, I did not see the play live. So for the most part I am taking everyone's word for it. I happened to turn the TV right when they were showing the replay. But just from experience it does happen when you blow the whistle, not everyone stops. That happens a lot when you have a really loud gym.

Juulie, I have had that sig line for several weeks now. I love that commercial.

Peace

Cool. I wouldn't have called a foul, either. I'm also not going to argue with my husband about it. But I like that inner smug self-confidence that I'm right. Your confirmation of my opinion is accepted.

Tony, maybe you saw a different broadcast than I saw. The only time I saw the lead, he was pointing straight down the court and clearly not pointing into the lane. My guess is you're right that he anticipated the call, and had to bail himself out with the travel.

Re: Changing topics
 

I have no idea. They probably felt the ticket would be a hotter ticket at the All-State Arena. There also could have been some conflicts with the Bulls at that time as well. The UC was used for a IHSA Class AA Boy's Super-Sectional and the Big Ten Tournament all in 5 days. It is possible it just would not work with all the schedules. I would not be surprised if the hockey situation was a factor as well. That was set long before the lockout.

Peace

Yea, I don't watch much TV, besides Cyberchase, Pokemon (when I can't avoid it) and the occasional Britwit on Saturday evenings. So it was the first I'd seen this one. Made me laugh -- I like that!

I dunno, I didn't see the L point at a spot that A1 might have travelled at. I didn't see A1 travel as he started his dribble. I didn't see A1 travel when he ended his dribble.

Juulie, you have been missing out. It took a lot not to laugh everytime those commercials came on. Now I just laugh a little when I see it.

Peace

I have a video capture card. If I can compress the file small enough so that it won't be too big, I'll try to post it on the web and link it.

A very good NCAA official once said at a camp....

"Ensure all your errors are errors of omission...."

I rarely criticize Raftery, but here's one. None of the replays was shown at-regular-speed-with-sound. Raf can count steps all he wants, but it means nothing without hearing when the whistle came. And the whistle came long before he got to three in his one-two-three.

When looking at this situation, you have to take into account the time and score. In that situation, you have to be sure. You have to be sure. And when you have to slow it down and review it several times, you cannot have been sure enough to blow.

I agree with Tony one hundred percent: he anticipated something that never came.

Great game. Congratulations to UNC on a very hard-earned victory, and to Villanova for the gamest of efforts.

You act like we haven't discussed officials calling out of their primary in the tourney....

The number of steps taken is irrelevant,

The key is which foot is the pivot foot when the dribble ends. He landed left-right at the end of his dribble. This makes the left foot his pivot foot. Once he lifted his left foot, he had to shoot before his left foot touched the ground again. When his left foot touched the ground, it became a traveling violation.

Isn't it just two ways of asking the same question? The question is whether his dribble ended before his left foot cleared the ground, in which case the right foot was the pivot and it wasn't a travel unless and until the right foot returned to the ground. Looks like the left foot was clear before the dribble ended, but it's not absolutely clear on the replay because you can't see his left hand.

Right! When was the ball held? If there was a travel at this point in the play, it shouldn't have been called at this point in the game, since it hasn't been called in the last six weeks.

If there was a travel at all, (and I defer to Dan's infinitely more authoritative opinion that there wasn't) it would have been on the spin move before the dribble. But the whistle didn't come till the ball had left the hands on the shot, so that would be really, really late.

I think that either the ref had been working his kid's soccer game earlier in the week and he was holding his travel call to see if there was an advantage, or he did as Tony (whose authority I also defer to) suggested and anticipated the call. In other words, he blew it.

He landed right-left, not left-right-left. It was VERY close, but both feet were off the floor when he gathered...Tivo is a wonderful thing...:D

It appears that the travel was near the lane, not at the 3 point line. From what they showed, I think it was a travel because the dribbler picked up the ball and established the left foot as his pivot foot. He then put down his pivot foot, got his feet together and shot the ball. If that was what was called, it was the proper call. And according to CBS, Hank Nichols said the call was right. Gumbel and his other pundits said the call was missed, even when they broke down the call in slow motion. The problem is that they have no understanding of the rule. Craig Kellogg used the 1 and 1/2 steps to describe what is allowed. I just want to know what 1 and 1/2 steps is?

I think one of the problems is that is not a travel called enough and most people would not call it regardless of the time of the game.

Peace

Sheez, Jeff, these guys can't even define "paradigm" and "holistic" and you want them to understand a concept as complicated as a "step"? I think you and I both know that if they were that smart (as smart as us!), they'd be doing something else.

I've looked at it a number of times. One could argue that he ended the dribble with his left foot on the floor, stepped right, stepped left. That's traveling.

CBS even analyzed again today, pointed out that he took two steps after gathering the ball but said that wasn't traveling. :(

Like I said it was close. Too close to call it in that situation, especially when you have the defender and the dribbler between you and the ball and it should be trail's call any way. Trail was looking right at it and passed.

I think Nichols explanation was that he gathered while the left foot was still on the floor. If that's not the basis for the call, I'm really not seeing any other coceivable basis. If the left foot was clear of the floor when the dribble stopped, I can't see any problem with the play, because he surely shot before the right foot returned to the floor.

One interesting thing to note is that Scott -- the defender who had been guarding Ray out near the sideline/three point line immediately assumed he had been called for the foul and ran over to the spot to say that it was on the floor. I did think Scott fouled him out there, and Scott has admitted as much. But the shot they showed on CBS today looks pretty clear that McCants didn't touch him once he got in the lane.

I hate to say it, but it really is hard to conclude anything other than that O'Neill anticipated contact in the lane.

What I heard on CBS is that Nichols said IF the official judged the left foot was the pivot then the travel was the correct call. If.

I did not hear that Nichols said it was absolutely the correct call.

I'm looking for the statement but I can't find it. If you have a link can you post it and we can put this this to an end.

It's great for us to play it back and forth on TIVO, in slo-mo, and at regular speed - to dissect whether he gathered on or off the floor - whether he landed L-R or R-L or 2-foot - whatever.

It's almost 24 hours later, and still no absolutely definitive answer....this adds evidence to the argument that this should NOT have been called.

Bottom line....you can no-call that a million times and nobody would care. Roy Williams and the UNC fans would not have been freaking out, asking for a walk, the analysts would not have been picking it apart, frame-by-frame, and Mr. Nichols would not have been required to respond publicly in any way, shape, or form.

There were likely 25 other instances earlier in the game that were in the same category as the "travel" call - but were passed on.

Like that very good NCAA ref (who's done 11 final fours) said, "errors of omission"...

Since I haven't made a comment on this play yet, I'll chime in now. All of the above comments are excellent. I have the game on video tape and have watched the play in slow-motion several times.
I believe that the left foot was still on the floor when the dribble ended. That makes it the pivot foot when the right foot touches in a step. The Villanova player now stepped with his right foot and then his left before going up to shoot. That's a travel and I say that the official got it right.

I also agree that it was super close. Afterall, I had a difficult time making the determination in super slow-mo! In live action, from the Lead, with players in front of me, I doubt that I make that call.
I feel that the official called it based upon the awkwardness of how the play looked. It just happened too fast for me to believe otherwise.

As it has been mentioned previously, the replay angle does not show the left hand to enable an accurate determination of when the dribble was terminated with respect to the left foot placement on the floor. Has someone seen a different replay angle that shows the left hand? If not, it does not appear that the right hand palm is facing up during the time that the left foot is in contact with the floor indicating a one handed termination of the dribble. Therefore, the only way for the dribble to become terminated would be the placement of the second hand on the ball. Is this not correct? (The possible exception being holding the ball to the body with one hand, which I don't think occurred.)

When I stop the replay at the exact position of the left foot coming off the floor, it does not appear (conclusively) that both hands are in contact with the ball.

Bottom line...without unobstructive view of left hand...too close to call, IMO.

Rick@LBA

Yeah, I tried to make this point earlier. You just can't see it. I agree that he definitely did not gather with the right hand alone. So the question turns on the left hand. Not only can you not see it, but he's wearing a blue arm sleeve that matches the color of his uniform, which makes it even more difficult.

What I can say is that given the angle of the arm, the speed the arm was moving, and the rest of the body language from the back that we're all used to that shows when a player has controlled a ball and is starting his move to the goal, I *think* the right not the left foot was the pivot.

But that's all circumstantial -- if O'Neill could see the left hand from his position, then he knows while we're just guessing. But I do agree with you 100 percent that there's no replay yet that has shown me the piece of information that I would regard as dispositive of whether the call was correct.

I was out of town on business all weekend and only saw this on a highlight without sound and the first thing that crossed my mind was "he called a foul and not the travel?"

Then I discovered he did call travel and everybody's on him about it.

I'm nobody from nowhere, admittedly, but that first glance to me looked travel-ish. If it wasn't, it wasn't, but if we have to start getting TiVos out to discern if a call was right or wrong, then I feel justified in my (almost final) decision not to do this anymore.

The ball started out in a dual responsibility area and in IMO it would've been nice, if there was going to be a travel on this play, if the T could've got the travel out just inside the 3 pt. arc.
I think they were both travels but the one out front appeared to be "more of a violation".(That sounds kind of funny when I say it)
My record from the barstool remains perfect!!
AAR

Gentlemen: Let me preface this by saying I don't know squat about basketball but I am curious about something. In football we have an inadvertent whistle rule. If an official anticipated a foul (as many people think happened) and blew the whistle and realized he didn't have a foul what actions are available to him? Is there such thing as an inadvertent in b-ball as we do with football?

ljudge,

This should be good, because I don't know squat about football. In basketball, we try to avoid the inad. whistle at all costs. The only option we get is to say, "my bad," and then put the ball back in play at the point of interruption. You guys also get to get together and pick up flags, that makes us jealous. If, in this play, the official had done it inadvertently, the basket would not have counted, they would have inbounded at the nearest spot, and everyone would have went nuts. That is why we try to avoid the inadvertent whistle.

On an inadvertent whistle the ball is dead immediately unless the ball's in the air on a try. The team in control retains control. If no team is in control the team with the arrow gets the ball.

In practice, if an inadvertent whistle had been the call at that point of that game the official would have been better off clutching his chest & falling to the floor faking a massive heart attack.

Dan is on to something there. Although, I might opt for the fake cramp or hamstring pull, or act like I am being chased by a mad hornet. It would let me come back into the game; plus faking a heart attack is like faking cancer...bad for the rep.

Good point. Also don't forget to keep track of how many times you needed to turn back a game due to your grandmother's death.

Best if you limit that to 2 per assignor.

;)