Are any of you doing AAU ball? I had 6 games this pass weekend and didnt really have any major problems.

We have a big AAU tournament coming up here at UVA sometime next month, I think. The play is really good, but the tournament direction leaves something to be desired. They don't like us to whack coaches or players, which has lead to some issues in the past. My experience with AAU is usually positive, but every game can be an adventure.

I do some AAU but those games usually come thru one of our HS assignors. I know there is alot more tourneys going on then I work. We don't have much trouble with those coaches and they usually get in line pretty quickly with a stop sign or T if needed. How do you guys get hooked up with them?

I do a lot of networking in my area and I know other boards that handle AAU, so I tell the assigners to keep me on the list!

Around here, AAU stands for "Awful Awful Ugly".

My first laugh on a Monday morning.... Tnx.

I work some AAU ball from time to time. I do not go out and seek it, but I will work it if I am asked and have time. It is much better than working some men's games if you ask me. Usually there is a coach and more structure involved. It could be a lot better, but I can tolerate it.

Peace

For the first time in about 6 years I worked some AAU games a few weeks ago. I worked some when I first started officiating and now that I have more experience I've got a new perspective on it....

Worked a pair of games up in the Couv (Vancouver, WA). Good partner I've worked with before, both in HS and rec ball. Both teams were fairly well coached, but man both of these coaches were SCREAMING at their kids. A kid (6th grader), missed a pass on a press and this led to a turnover. Coach yells at the kid "YOU SIT DOWN NOW..WHEN I TELL YOU TO MAKE THAT PASS YOU BETTER AS HELL MAKE IT!!" My partner then tells the coach to watch his tone with the kids..coach turns to him and says "I'LL TALK TO MY SON WHATEVER G-- D--- WAY I FEEL LIKE IT!!" Partner whacked him. He couldn't believe it, he was dumbfounded. At a timeout, he and game management wonder why he received the T. We explained the rules about cursing and abuse from coaches to players (using NFHS rules). He still didn't like it, but he didn't yell at his players anymore..

(I wouldn't have issued the T for the coach - player "conversation." But it was within the rules and I backed my partner when it came time to)

Both games I worked were close/good ones. The second game a team with 20 players lost to team with 5. Coach for team 20 pulled his players after every single mistake, missed layup etc...

However, both games I worked the coaches/fans were even more inept about the rules of the game then even a HS freshman coach... When they didn't like the call and they turned on me, however they just got the "look" from me

Definately an interesting change of pace from HS ball. I'd still rather do AAU ball then adult rec league ball...

I'm just glad when my son is of age that we aren't going to put his whole stock in a travelling AAU team. I don't think I could ever sit in the stands and let my son be treated the ways these coaches treated these kids. There are more important things when it comes to playing basketball, like having fun and enjoying yourself.....

This should be printed on the cover of every program in every tournament. There are parents and coaches whom might have a wake up call after reading it.

Case in point. 5th grade girls are playing and I have a crying, and I mean CRYING girl running the floor in the 4th. I tell the coach to check her after we do a few trips up and back because I think she may be hurt. Coach informs me "She's alright!" as if to tell me to mind my own business. Fine.

My partner goes to adminster a throw-in where this girls is defending the inbounds pass and she's still crying. He puts his arm around her to she if she's okay and she just nods and looks over at the coach. We continue play and the game ends. Of course this team got rolled up and lost.

After the game the coach is absolutely ripping this girl in the hall out near the concessions where everyone can hear. It's the traditional "you don't want it bad enough!!!", "you're being lazy!!!", "you're letting you're team down!!!", and the best of all "do you want to play or not!!?!?!?" tantrums. The girl is still crying and we're talking solid crying for over 15 minutes now.

Then after the coach is done, mom and dad get their turn and take their shots at her repeating almost everything the coach said verbatim. Then they haul her out to the car and God knows what happened out there. It was to the point I felt like intervening as it was certainly beginning to border on emotional child abuse.

Next day, same thing. Girl is crying during the last period... I just stayed out of the hall afterwards...

Because she would probably turn up "missing" the following day!

where I live, yelling and chewing out the players used to be the norm and I feel it should still be. If you want to have fun recreationally, then by all means go play rec ball. If you want to be competitive and take winning seriously and religiously then you need one of these coaches and these parents to be on your butt constantly. I never thought of basketball while i was in high school as fun. It was my job and my duty to lead that team to a win because when I played some of the other players did not have any motivation if our old coach(we had a new one who did not yell at all, at us my junior and senior year) was not on their a$$.

I consider that coach to be doing his job and trying to motivate his players. If you have ever heard of a coach by the name of Rick Insell from Tennessee who has won about 10 state championships in his 20 years as a head coach at Shelbyville High School write back, because you want to talk about a man who will chew his girls out.

refTN I get what your saying but there is a BIG difference between high school ball and 5th grade girls (or boys for that matter!).

RefTN,
If a coach can't get the best out of his players without swearing at them, then he should be in college. I've seen coaches chew their kids out, and it's usually very contructive. However, I'm not going to sit by and listen to him swear a blue streak on my court. If he's yelling at his players, I'll warn him once. And if he's screaming at his kids, you can darn sure bet my bench decorum rule will be strictly enforced.
The reason for that is simple, and one I've learned from experience. If he's up screaming at his kids, then he's far more likely to try to coach me the same way. The only way for me to control it is to make sure he knows that I'm going to enforce his limits.
Best girls coaches I saw this past season were both up yelling at their kids. They were both willing to chew some kids out when they needed it; and they both focused entirely on the kids and only occasionally pleaded for a call. One was a former D-1 (Big 12) player who did an incredible job, IMO, of coaching his select teams. The other happened to be a Dad coaching his daughter's freshman team.

Oh my. I hope my son never has a coach (yes, even at the HS level) who takes the game religiously. The game (and I emphasize game) should be fun first.

Z

I doubt that John Wooden would agree with you.
He won 10 NCAA National Championships in a 12 year period without screaming and acting like a jerk.

Motivation is a major issue, but being a class act is even more important. There are other ways to motivate which are probably even more effective.

Most of us were not there to know what Coach Wooden was or what he was not. John Wooden also coached in a different time and circumstances. Not sure today he would have the same success if for no other reason he would have to play more than west coast teams to win his national championships. I have heard that Coach Wooden was not this "angel" many of us would like to think he was as a coach. Then again this is all opinion. Adolph Rupp was successful too in that era. Not sure how much of an "angel" he was either.

Peace

Congratulations. You have managed to say absolutely nothing, and only took 106 words to do it. :rolleyes:

I doubt that John Wooden would agree with you.
He won 10 NCAA National Championships in a 12 year period without screaming and acting like a jerk.

[/B][/QUOTE]If you ever get a chance to talk to one of the older or retired PAC10 refs, Nevada, ask them about Wooden. He had a real reputation as a moaner and whiner when it came to officials. He certainly was no angel.

Of course he wasn't a John Chaney either.

Wooden is only today seen as a "class act" because the media likes to fantasize about things that happen over 30 years ago. There was no ESPN, no 24 hour news channels and no wall to wall tournament coverage back when Wooden was a coach. If that was the case where the media had the same investigative drive then as they do today, then the NCAA would have had to investigate the UCLA program and probably would have been suspended the school for serious NCAA violations. Just because a guy sits down in old films does not make him a class act. Wooden also had many conflicts with players and his administration when he was winning. When someone wins we seem to forget the many negatives that went along with their personality especially before the media was a constant in the sporting world. Coach K has cursed out a few officials and players in his day, but we seemed to not show that side of his program because he is nice to the media. Bobby Knight does the same thing, but he could give a damn what the media or anyone for that matter thinks of him. Not sure what else there is to understand.

Peace

Don't forget Coach Knight's graduation rate are excellent also. John Salley on TBDSSP said sometimes you need to have a coach get in your face to motivate you.

Bobby Knight's game antics are no role model for youth coaches but he does do the job he's been hired to do.

Mike Wilbon gave what I consider to be a perfect description of Bob Knight. On PTI yesterday, Wilbon said that Knight is a "great coach and a small, angry, vindictive man". Truer words were never spoken.

Would you send your child to spend four years with a small, angry, vindictive man? Lots of parents do it; but I wouldn't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Would you send your child to spend four years with a small, angry, vindictive man? Lots of parents do it; but I wouldn't.

Me neither.

Z

I think it depends on the make-up and talent of your child. First of all, it isn't Coach Knight's job to give someone's child values. It is the parent's job. Knight said (yesterday) that today's players do not have the fundamentals that they used to. Add to that the lower moral standards. Top all of that off with an education (you can go to school to become an expert on parenting) system that has taken the place of "the village raising a man" or whatever and you get these sensitivities. He wants his players to do what they are supposed to within his system. when he has had players that are good enough he loosens the reigns (Isaiah and Calbert Cheaney) but when he doesn't he uses his system. AND, they graduate which is the best most college players could hope to ever do.

For years I coached both my daughters on the same volleyball team. National play from age 13 through their senior years and both girls scored All-State, 4A State Championship, MVP's and college scholarships. We played hard and tough and if any parent or lady thought practice was too hard or demanding, rec leagues were always an option.

There is a huge difference between player dedication, player/team goals, the desire to achieve success and the willingness to put forth your best effort every time you step onto a court to practice or play in order to achieve those goals and that of abusing a player.

Once you understand the difference between abusive behavior and that of coaching and parenting, then and only then should you be allowed to be responsible for either having children, or in charge of seven or more children of other parents.

There is also a difference when everyone has the same goals and the kids know you love them and their parents know you are concerned for their kids. All that said, tough love and verbal abuse are 2 different animals.

He certainly has some positive qualities, but the extreme negatives that Coach Knight and Coach Chaney have shown would make me never want my kid to "learn" from him. Wilbon is correct, they are both angry, bitter men.

Z

Well said Mike.

If I were a big time D1 coach making high 6 figures based soley on the ability of a bunch of 18 thru 22 year olds to perform consistently under pressure then I might yell at them too. But for AAU & even HS ranks...nah. Can you imagine the leader of the HS jazz band screaming at his rhythm section during a concert because he didn't like the way they kept time?

Demanding is 1 thing. Abusive is something completely different.

Actually I can Dan_ref!

We lived a couple of blocks from the HS parking lot years ago and early one Saturday morning the freakin' band woke me up around 7am while practicing on the parking lot (They practiced their football field formations there and were marching all around).

It was a beautiful morning anyway, but I was a *little under the weather* from the night before. So I decided to get up to make some coffee and check in on SportsCenter to see what the scores were.

After about 15 minutes of this band director shouting through his megaphone and directing these keds he let's out with this, "ALRIGHT KNOCK IT OFF!!! IF YOU DON'T QUIT GOOFING OFF WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THE 'BUFFALO SHUFFLE'!!!

I about spit my coffe out! "What's that?!?! No Buffalo Shuffle?!?!" :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]Mike Wilbon gave what I consider to be a perfect description of Bob Knight. On PTI yesterday, Wilbon said that Knight is a "great coach and a small, angry, vindictive man". Truer words were never spoken.

Did Wilbon do this as he perused his Billy Packer School of Commentary Completion Certificate? Does Wilbon know that Coach Knight is 6'5"? Now I am sure he used the adjective "small" in a figurative manner however, it makes him look ridiculous and invalid.
Yes I am a Bobby Knight "fan" and have been all my life. I do realize that he has done some things that he should not be proud of. He has admitted that most of things were in a moment of overreaction.
What most of you have not seen is that he took someone like ME aside at every one of his summer camps and gave them a lesson on how to study and how to be a gentleman!!
But you try to help one old lady find a seat during a game or help one reporter find his camera in Puerto Rico . . .
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I had a lot more but that is not what this thread is about. sorry.
AAR

Cruel & inhuman punishment if you ask me. We need a government investigation! It's people like this that give a bad name to HS music programs all over the country!

:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Almost Always Right
[B]AAR, I guess it is obvious that we are from Indiana! :D

Lack of Self-Control
 

This is the problem. He may have a great coaching record and he may have also have taught some kids some good things BUT it is his lack of self-control that gets him in trouble. Again and again and again.

For many years Knight always looked like a red-hot kettle just ready to boil over and explode. He doesn't look that way anymore.

It's a package deal - if your eyes aren't open going in, you tend to get all facets not just the favorable ones. Experience teaches. And if your experience is getting yelled at, and publically humiliated, like the little 11 year-old girl in the original post, that's what you learn - and accept - and will teach to your kids - and other people's kids, if you're their coach. And the pain and suffering continues until someone breaks the pattern.

Screaming and hollering, yelling, public humiliation are not what I would consider intelligent correction methods - especially coming from an adult to an 11 year-old. Fear is a powerful motivator but it is not a very healthy one. And from an adult to a child, it can very easily be abusive. Adult to adult between physical equals, this method is not very successful - remember a couple of years back, the NBA player (another noted hot-head) that choked his coach. The abuse wasn't well received.

In summation, I feel that anyone that operates this way from a position of designated authority or from greater physical strength, is likely a "small, angry, vindictive" person. And vindictive is not really the explanation I would have chosen because it is not an attitude of paying someone back for what they did to you. I tend to think it is deeper than that. It is more of an attitude of lashing out at others for your own personal shortcomings or inabilities - it's that bubbling, seething calderon of anger from an unknown, or yet undiscovered, cause.

I don't feel screaming at kids builds character strength or resoluteness but rather develops yet another bubbling calderon. For those that think this is okay, I suggest you check your experience. What were you taught? What pattern are you in and what are you teaching?

Wow! That's pretty deep for a public discussion.

I might add in here, from a risk management viewpoint, if an employer or supervisor were to even GET CLOSE to mimicking this type of behavior to "motivate" an employee... There would be untold tens of thousands of dollars in litigation costs as well as a substantial out-of-court settlement for the employee.

But I guess when you're "bullying" 12 year olds for "their own good and bests interests" somehow it is different - and accepted - to be treated in this manner?!?!

Not quite sure how this thread got where it is, but I'll see if I can bring it back just a bit.

I don't think that Knight, Wooden, Cheyney, or Larry Brown, for that matter, are even remotely analagous to any AAU coach. First and foremost, AAU coaches are responsible for CHILDREN, literally. As in one of the orignal posts, the girl was in like 5th grade. 5th GRADE!!! I can't really think of any good reason for an adult to scream at or otherwise berate a 5th grader when it comes to athletics. Now, someone might want to make an exception for the kid's partents. College coaches are dealing with legal adults, young men and women. As a previous poster hinted upon, an adult screaming at an adult is very different from an adult screaming at a 5th grader.

I was at an AAU tournament last year (16U), where the coach was actually swearing at his players in the timeout huddle. I mean, you could hear it in the stands. If one wants to put such a high emphasis on winning and championships, part of that should be sportsmanship and decency. If the only way a coach can motivate his or her players is to swear at them or embarass them or act like a fool, then maybe he or she deserves a T; or more.

Do you warn a coach whom is using profanity within his huddle first, or just go ahead and T him?

Just for the record, in a case like this I'm gonna nail that coach with no warning. If I can hear the swearing, and others can hear it also, then it's gonna cost the coach-- especially if it happens in the younger age groups in club ball--AAU,CYO, whatever. Jmo.

Couldn't agree more. I had a rec game with two 7th grade girls teams. This is a recreational, not competitive, league. One of the coaches started yelling at his daughter really bad. During a timeout, he was screaming at her in the huddle. I went over to him and told him to stop. He said she was his daughter and he would talk to her any way he wanted.

I told him that on this day, in this gym, during this game, he was a coach and she was a player in our program and we did not allow this kind of behavior - period. He started to give me an arguement and I tossed him. He was suspended for the season and removed from the Board of Directors.

Style and Substance
 

There are two basic methods of coaching. Coaching for instruction and coaching for performance. At the youngest age groups it needs to be entirely the former and as you move up the continuum, you shift emphasis towards performance.

But watching lots of High School and AAU games, it appears to me that there ought to be lots more empahsis on coaching for instruction and a lot less coaching for performance. The story about the 5th grade girl crying made me want to puke. Give me a break, the kid is 10!!!

Problem is that most AAU and HS coaches watch college level coaches. Now if Bobby Knight wants to rip into a player because he made a bad pass, I can understand it at that level. He is yelling at a kid who has played hoops at a high level most of his life and is getting serious money from the college and should have known better by now. I can understand a little bit of this "performance yelling" taking place at the High School level, but let's face it, most players in High School have a lot to learn about the game. But.. That's not the same thing as a 11 year old kid deciding (and it's probably the kid's parent deciding) that they are going to step up to a more competitive level.

So no, I don't buy into the argument that good coaches have to yell at their kids to get them to step up. Most of those coaches are mimicking a style that isn't effective at the level they're coaching.

First of all, being abused or not has nothing to do with the make-up and talent of the child.

Second of all, I'm not talking about instilling values. I'm talking about kicking one's players; cursing out one's players; choking one's players.

I would not, under any circumstances, put my child in that person's care for four years. Period. Lots of people do. I personally think that's a mistake.

What do those things have to do with what is reasonable behavior by an educator toward a student?

I disagree. I think they could reasonably hope to graduate without suffering verbal, physical and mental abuse. But that's just me, I guess.

Is that a joke? Seriously. Is that a joke? Because if it's not, it's the saddest attempt at defending a person I've ever seen. Knight is a small person, with petty grudges and childish behavior. Only a fan who didn't want to look at the truth would make a comment such as yours.

Chuck it seems like you are making some statements that are absolute. I would think it appropriate to add "IMO." Afterall, that is your opinion. Different strokes for different folks. The mental make-up of the kid or young man DOES matter. I'm an example of someone that wouldn't get all shook up because of something Bobby Knight said to me. Discipline has been instilled in me as well as various situations that have caused me to develop a thick skin. What level of excellence can Coach Knight set for me that is higher than the one I set for myself? This subject will show my bias due to the fact that I'm from Indiana. I love this game, love Indiana basketball and Coach Knight is the man! IMO, of course. :D

Wilbon also acknowledged that Knight has done some wonderful things for charity and that he personally has been invovled with him in a couple of those endeavors.

He added that the person Coach Knight is a contradiction (or something like that).

So he has his good and his bad.

In Colorado, I don't see much AAU ball. I just work the All state game for girls this past sunday. What kick that was. I was evaluated by a college official which just made it htat much better.

I would love to do more big games like that. Not saying you call much during an all star game. You had the best players for each classification and it was awesome to watch them play

I also acknowledged that, Nevada. My Wilbon quote started with "Knight's a great coach. . ."

He did say "He's a walking contradiction." I don't deny that as a coach he does great things and gets great results. I just differ from a lot of people in thinking that those coaching results don't excuse the other reprehensible behavior.

Ok, I've hijacked this thread, although unintentionally. So this is my last post (in this thread) about Knight.


I did say "Personally, I think that's a mistake".

Of course it matters in lots of ways. But it is absolutely irrelevant to the question of whether he should be mentally, physically or verbally abused. No student should be subject to being choked or kicked; or having to look at dirty toilet paper from his coach's butt. I'm pretty sure that every psychologist worth his/her salt would agree with that. IMO.

And that, with all respect (and I mean that absolutely sincerely), is the problem. Anyone who can look at the question from the outside can see the outrageousness of his actions.

As I said, I've beaten this horse long enough. I'll stay off the subject now.

How many people would tolerate this kind of behavior from a boss? How about from a professor? How about from their kids' teacher at school?? And yet we tolerate it because he/she is a basketball coach? (And no, I'm not just talking about Knight - but the AAU/HS coaches as well)...

Example: My math class takes a test and several kids do lousy (like usual)...I pass the test back, start yelling and swearing at the kids who did poorly, maybe toss a chair across the room, choke one student for a few seconds, and maybe kick my son who happens to be in the class...but that's ok because they're gonna do well on the next test and my record of high-achieving math students will be intact, right???

Give me a break...Knight is a small, vindictive man, and any coach who acts like that needs to be dealt with immediately by the officials who are there...

You missed sending a kid after the others to goon it up...