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-   -   Worst. Technical. Ever. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/19208-worst-technical-ever.html)

A Pennsylvania Coach Sat Mar 19, 2005 04:30pm

Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over.

Junker Sat Mar 19, 2005 04:36pm

Pulling your shirt out, in frustration, on the court is automatic around here and I would assume most places. The player needs to learn to keep his head and go to the bench. Good T in my book.

ChuckElias Sat Mar 19, 2005 04:44pm

I don't really have a problem with the T there. Not saying it's an automatic, but if the official felt it was warranted, it's kind of hard to argue when the kid is half undressed in response to the call.

tjones1 Sat Mar 19, 2005 05:11pm

I would agree it sounds like a good T. Just cause it's the championship game, doesn't excuse a player from committing unsportsmanlike conduct, which the official ruled it was.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over.

I am sure that Joe Willie is proud of is alma mater winning the state championship.

And I agree with the other posters regarding the technical foul.

MTD, Sr.

JugglingReferee Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:42pm

No need for this T.

The official needs to recognize time, score and human emotion. A natural reaction is to be upset. However, he could have done much worse that would definitely be a T. He restrained himself, with the hope that his team could still have a chance.

The referee interfered in an unnecessary manner. Bad call.

Rich Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
No need for this T.

The official needs to recognize time, score and human emotion. A natural reaction is to be upset. However, he could have done much worse that would definitely be a T. He restrained himself, with the hope that his team could still have a chance.

The referee interfered in an unnecessary manner. Bad call.

Restrained himself by pulling his shirt up over his head, huh?

JugglingReferee Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:02pm

I don't read in the original post, Rich, where it said "over his head".

Fact is a many foul calls are accompanied by a look of frustration on a player's face. Including fouls called much earlier in the game. And then a T for eating his shirt?

BktBallRef Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:01am

As PA Coach was not on the floor or in the official's position, we do not know what might have also been said. I had one of these earlier in the year where the player said, "You need to call the ****ing foul." I heard and his coach heard it. I popped him, and his coacj sat him down. A football partner works at the same school, and told me that the kid had it coming, even though no one else heard it.

In short, we don't know what else might have transpired.

canuckrefguy Sun Mar 20, 2005 02:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
In short, we don't know what else might have transpired.
Exactly. Maybe (and that's a big MAYBE) as described, it might not be "automatic", but I can easily see it being one of those reactions meant to show up the official.

JugglingReferee Sun Mar 20, 2005 05:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
In short, we don't know what else might have transpired.
It seems to me that's true about so many situations here - especially the ones involving technical fouls.

I guess I will preface (unnecessarily) all future posts with, "...if that was all that happened. If other actions occured that we may not be aware of, I reserve the right to change my response."

It did say in the original text that not a word was spoken. Seeing that, we either:

<li>accept the poster's account that there was no verbal communication by the player</li>
- in this case I can't believe a T was issued to putting the bottom of your shirt in your mouth

<li>discount the poster's account and assume the possibility that something was verbalized</li>
- if this is the case, then why stop at the verbalization. Perhaps the poster didn't see the player flip the bird to the official. Maybe he 'grabbed himself'. Maybe this, maybe that.

We're now reading into the posts, folks. Most people discern that "walking away" means that the player is not hanging around the referee.

JugglingReferee Sun Mar 20, 2005 05:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
The player needs to learn to keep his head and go to the bench. Good T in my book.
Not so. There is no requirement to go to the bench, until the referee tells the player's head coach and player, about the disqualification.

Neither of those events happened, therefore there is no requirement to do anything related to going to the bench.

MdSooner Sun Mar 20, 2005 06:15am

(JugglingReferee No need for this T.

The official needs to recognize time, score and human emotion. A natural reaction is to be upset. However, he could have done much worse that would definitely be a T. He restrained himself, with the hope that his team could still have a chance.

The referee interfered in an unnecessary manner. Bad call. )


Just so Juggling doesnt feel alone - I too probably would not have a called a T in this situation.

ChrisSportsFan Sun Mar 20, 2005 09:39am

Coach, there's more to consider then just the shirt thing. Has he already been warned for smack talking, or for begging for calls? Who know?

Oh yea, there's been worse, I can assure you.

Jurassic Referee Sun Mar 20, 2005 09:50am

So much for the "worst technical ever" bullsh*t!

This story says the "T" was for cursing <b>at</b> the ref <b>before</b> he pulled the shirt out.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474474.stm

Amazing what you find out when you you finally hear the official's side of a story.

A Pennsylvania Coach Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:37am

If he said something that warranted a T, fine. They did show a replay that had a closeup of the kid almost immediately after the foul call and you could tell he didn't say anything from the start of the closeup until the tech call, but it is possible that he said something instantly after the call.

ref18 Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:38am

I'm away for a few days and all you do while I'm gone is debate technical fouls. What a time to take a vacation. :D

Junker Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:34am

First off, he needs to head to the bench because he had picked up his 5th foul. Secondly, I understand this is a big game, but I don't think we should change what we expect for sportsmanship just because it is. We are expected to work our best game and be professional every night, why are players and coaches not expected to do the same? When it is something obvious to everyone like pulling your shirt out on the floor, it needs to be addressed. I've always kind of looked at it as we don't give technicals, we assess them when they are earned.

BktBallRef Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
So much for the "worst technical ever" bullsh*t!

This story says the "T" was for cursing <b>at</b> the ref <b>before</b> he pulled the shirt out.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474474.stm

Amazing what you find out when you you finally hear the official's side of a story.

AHEM! I believe SOMEBODYsuggested this in an earlier post!! :D

Man, I hate being right all the time! :)

BktBallRef Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
Secondly, I understand this is a big game, but I don't think we should change what we expect for sportsmanship just because it is. We are expected to work our best game and be professional every night, why are players and coaches not expected to do the same?
Agreed.

I think I mentioned this in another post but here goes anyway. In a state final that one of our crews worked, the score was 15-2. The trailing coach started to officiate. He was given a stop sign shortly there afterwards. A couple of minutes later, he asked, "Are you gonna call a ****ing travel?"

Whack.

The fact that we're playing on a bigger stage is not an issue.

JugglingReferee Sun Mar 20, 2005 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
First off, he needs to head to the bench because he had picked up his 5th foul.
Not so. He may not know it's his 5th until he's told. Show me where it says that a player must go to his bench when his 5th foul has been whistled? Only a poor official will require a player to go to his bench before the foul has been reported, coach and player notified.

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
Secondly, I understand this is a big game, but I don't think we should change what we expect for sportsmanship just because it is. We are expected to work our best game and be professional every night, why are players and coaches not expected to do the same? When it is something obvious to everyone like pulling your shirt out on the floor, it needs to be addressed. I've always kind of looked at it as we don't give technicals, we assess them when they are earned.
I agree that we don't give T's until they're earned. I also agree that coaches and players need to be respectful too. The player was respectful. Simply biting his shirt is an act where he gathered himself before anything else can happen. It sounds to me like he addressed it himself. Now, as for the alleged cursive language, that's my next reply...

JugglingReferee Sun Mar 20, 2005 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
So much for the "worst technical ever" bullsh*t!

This story says the "T" was for cursing <b>at</b> the ref <b>before</b> he pulled the shirt out.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474474.stm

Amazing what you find out when you you finally hear the official's side of a story.

Ah ha! I knew it! So the T was for language, not for biting his shirt.

See what you can do when you're retired? :D :D

Junker Sun Mar 20, 2005 02:53pm

You are right, he doesn't have to go until he's told. I just skipped that part in my post. I should have been more specific.

A Pennsylvania Coach Tue Apr 25, 2006 02:42pm

consider the source
 
"PIAA officials" - the same people that oversaw a full-scale brawl in the first half of a state championship without an ejection, then responded by moving inbound passes in front of a team's bench to one end or the other. JOKE

Dan_ref Tue Apr 25, 2006 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
"PIAA officials" - the same people that oversaw a full-scale brawl in the first half of a state championship without an ejection, then responded by moving inbound passes in front of a team's bench to one end or the other. JOKE

You came back an entire year later to take a cheap shot and broadly smear an entire body of individuals?

Damn...I don't recall you being that beaten down & bitter...kinda sad.

Ah well.

A Pennsylvania Coach Tue Apr 25, 2006 03:14pm

"PIAA officials"
 
I read this to mean not game officials, but officials in the organization that is the PIAA. I have always had some differences of opinion with that body. Of course, I've had a few with game officials, but nothing quite so philosophically different.

M&M Guy Tue Apr 25, 2006 05:10pm

Interesting how this thread pops up again, especially after how this past season the NF determined this exact situation to be a T.

Maybe it shows that in the previous season it may not have been that bad a call, but actually one the committe wanted called.

Forksref Tue Apr 25, 2006 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
So much for the "worst technical ever" bullsh*t!

This story says the "T" was for cursing <b>at</b> the ref <b>before</b> he pulled the shirt out.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474474.stm

Amazing what you find out when you you finally hear the official's side of a story.

That pretty much settles it. Self-control is a valuable commodity in tight games.

tjones1 Tue Apr 25, 2006 06:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Interesting how this thread pops up again, especially after how this past season the NF determined this exact situation to be a T.

Maybe it shows that in the previous season it may not have been that bad a call, but actually one the committe wanted called.

I would agree. As I stated in my first post in this thread, it was a good T. Certainly the "shirt popping" the NCAA created had something to do with it as well. It's certainly unsportsmanlike.

I wasn't for sure what I missed whenever I saw this thread at the top... kind of sad it was bumped back to the top to take a shot at the organization.

JugglingReferee Tue Apr 25, 2006 06:57pm

Many people bite their lip to prevent themselves from saying something.

Maybe this player bits his shirt. By biting his shirt, he could be preventing himself from verbalizing a profanity. Maybe it's his own preventative playing. I like to penalize the more obvious situations, such as profanity, punching the matts on a wall, hand gestures, or throwing a mouthguard at me.

Edit: Knowing now that the player cursed at the official, the T was the proper course of action. Once a player swears, the shirt biting is not meant to show up the official. It's just personal frustration by then.

pauli Tue Apr 25, 2006 07:47pm

proper call
 
any time a new rule or point of emphasis comes into effect, i am going to call it. i consider it an insult to the folk on the rules committee to ignore their efforts

Adam Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:43am

I resent someone trying to steal my title. I called the worst technical ever; just last year. I know, because the coach told me so. :D

SMEngmann Wed Apr 26, 2006 01:23am

I think this is a good discussion to bring up with the POEs for 06-07 having just come out. The POE of pulling the shirt out as a T in my opinion is a horrible POE because it basically puts an official between a rock and a hard place in a tight situation. Assuming the player hadn't cursed the official, if you're out there with a clear POE against pulling out the jersey as a T and a situation where an emotional and frustrated player is trying to show restraint, what do you do? If you issue a weak T here, you put a negative stamp on the game, but you uphold your duty to enforce the POEs (in my opinion strictly enforcing this is over-officious), or if you ignore or warn the action, then your assigning committee gets on you for not properly enforcing the POEs. This is why the rules committee should be more careful in determining proper POEs.

Nevadaref Wed Apr 26, 2006 01:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over.

Yep, I would have made the same call and here's why:

2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:
A. Uniforms: Players are increasingly using their uniforms in unsporting ways. Examples include: Holding the uniform out from the chest area to display the team name to the opponent or fans; pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display; and removing the jersey either on the court or near the team bench, especially after a disqualification. The committee expects jerseys to be worn properly and remain on. New Rule 3-4-15 adds, "A player shall not remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt in the confines of the playing area." The result is a technical foul.
Uniforms must be worn as intended and the rule must be enforced. The jersey must be tucked in and shorts must be worn properly. When a player is in violation of the rule, the player is directed to leave the game. While an untucked jersey during the normal course of play is understandable until it can be corrected, too often there are multiple warnings for clear violations. Coaches bear a great responsibility in ensuring uniforms stay on team members. Officials must enforce the rule.

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 07:31am

Worst Technical ever
 
I agree with the call, but not know all the surrounding cirmcumstances I really wouldn't comment other than some points to remember for the future. We are all human, we all make mistakes, but as an official we need to keep game management in mind. That call may have turned the outcome of the game. Could that official held from making that call?

I would like some opinions and comments on that question.

Junker Wed Apr 26, 2006 08:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
I think this is a good discussion to bring up with the POEs for 06-07 having just come out. The POE of pulling the shirt out as a T in my opinion is a horrible POE because it basically puts an official between a rock and a hard place in a tight situation. Assuming the player hadn't cursed the official, if you're out there with a clear POE against pulling out the jersey as a T and a situation where an emotional and frustrated player is trying to show restraint, what do you do? If you issue a weak T here, you put a negative stamp on the game, but you uphold your duty to enforce the POEs (in my opinion strictly enforcing this is over-officious), or if you ignore or warn the action, then your assigning committee gets on you for not properly enforcing the POEs. This is why the rules committee should be more careful in determining proper POEs.

I'm going to disagree. If we would all pay attention to this and uniformly (pun intended) take care of this during the season, it wouldn't put us between a rock and a hard place. This is a rule, it should be enforced. Players are expected to be disciplined enough not to travel late in the game, but if they do, you go get it. I won't say I never let a T go for pulling the shirt out (I did this year, a girl yanked it out at the bench after fouling out and I "didn't see it" because it was at the far end of the court). I should have made that call. I'm not saying I totally agree with the rule because I don't, but if its there, we need to enforce it. As always, just my $.02.

Jurassic Referee Wed Apr 26, 2006 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
I agree with the call, but not know all the surrounding cirmcumstances I really wouldn't comment other than some points to remember for the future. We are all human, we all make mistakes, but as an official we need to keep game management in mind. That call may have turned the outcome of the game. Could that official held from making that call?

I would like some opinions and comments on that question.

According to the story, the player got the technical foul because he cursed at the official. What other circumstances do you need to know? :confused: Are you saying that that an official, any official, should <b>ever</b> ignore a player cursing at him?

Lah me......

That ain't game management imo, Fred. That a lack of testicular fortitude.

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 09:38am

worst technical ever
 
As I stated earlier, Not knowing all circumstance, Yes I would have T'd him in a NY second. But for him putting his shirt in his mouth and walking away as the posting stated. I would have looked at what was going on in the game. That is all part of what is discussed in Pregame. we make it mandatory. we normally try to discuss all game situation and even then we don't cover all, it's imposible. we "TRY". We ask that we meet at for 1 to 1 1/2 hour before game time.

As an official, I try not to be the outcome of the game.....

That is all I am stating, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's comments.

Jurassic Referee Wed Apr 26, 2006 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

As an official, I try not to be the outcome of the game.....

I can't agree with that philosophy. As an official, sometimes you <b>have</b> to be the outcome of the game.

Just call the game consistently and evenly from beginning to end, and no one will ever have any real complaints with you. Swallowing your whistle at the end because you don't want to be the "outcome of the game" is just wrong imo, if that is what you are referring to. If you ignore a righteous foul or violation at the end of a game by trying to rationalize that you didn't want to affect the outcome, then you really <b>are</b> affecting the outcome by screwing the team that didn't commit that foul or violation.

Jmo.....

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:02am

worst technical ever
 
I'm not going to go into anymore detail. I agree with you. Call consistently and call evenly.

M&M Guy Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
As an official, sometimes you <b>have</b> to be the outcome of the game.

Although I agree wholeheartedly with your entire point, I might have to subtly disagree with this statement. I think this is what scares a lot of officials into not making that tough call at the end of the game. If you look at it as the player was the one that committed the foul or violation, and all you're doing as an official is just making the proper call, you aren't determining the outcome, the players are. You're just making the call. The players determined the outcome.

I do think there are officials that talk themselves into not making a tough call by rationalizing that they don't want to be "determining the outcome". But they are, because they're screwing the team that didn't commit the foul or violation out of a posession or free throws. The only way an official helps determine an outcome is by making a wrong call, or no-call because they were out of position, or didn't have the kahonas.

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:29am

worst technical ever
 
M&M I agree with you call what you see. I meant to outcome mostly toward the T'. Was it warranted. Possibly so. For all the right reasons. I again try to defend my post, based on the the original post stated." for putting his shirt in his mouth and wlking away"

If he cursed and put his shirt in his mouth and walking away. Hell yea T him up.

Again, the Player was probably frustrated, his 5th, game turning play, was he a senior, was he the top player and probably 10 other reasons. Non excusable. Let's get that out of the way.

I also see the other side of the coin, high visibility, News media, High school officials, Mayor, governor and maybe even President. There is no wrong answer to any posts. They are just opinions, from the look of it. there are many views on the issue. Most importantly I wasn't there and don't know what I would have done if I was. We are all being Monday morning officials of what we would have done. He made the right call.

Dan_ref Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
I also see the other side of the coin, high visibility, News media, High school officials, Mayor, governor and maybe even President. There is no wrong answer to any posts. They are just opinions, from the look of it. there are many views on the issue. Most importantly I wasn't there and don't know what I would have done if I was. We are all being Monday morning officials of what we would have done. He made the right call.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, but if you're saying there's justification for letting a player curse you on the floor without a T simply because it's a high profile game or he's a high profile player then we disagree 115%.

BLydic Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
"PIAA officials" - the same people that oversaw a full-scale brawl in the first half of a state championship without an ejection, then responded by moving inbound passes in front of a team's bench to one end or the other. JOKE

The 2003 state basketball championships debuting at the new GIANT Center will be remembered for an ugly incident that took place in the Boys Class AA final. A bench-clearing brawl erupted in the second quarter between Sto-Rox and Camp Hill Trinity. Apparently, the fight began when Sto-Rox junior John Geiger was about to inbound the basketball in front of the Trinity bench. Geiger claims he was grabbed by one of the players sitting on the bench. He then turned around and punched Shamrocks reserve Matt Wesner, starting the melee, which included fans coming onto the floor from the stands. Geiger was tossed from the game. Later in the contest, teammate Davon Huger was ejected for swinging at a Shamrocks player. Camp Hill Trinity won the game 66-49.

Damn Coach, you're 0 for 2.

A Pennsylvania Coach, consider the source.

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:39am

worst technical ever
 
Never said that. Player will always get a T from me anytime a player, coach, bench personnel ever curse at me, an other officials, a player, a fan or anyone in the gym. As long as I'm on the floor for warmups, game time, half time, timeouts, inbetween quarters, inbetween calls, until I leave the gym and the game outcome has been determined. I will give a T to a player.


. .

Dan_ref Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
Never said that. Player will always get a T from me anytime a player, coach, bench personnel ever curse at me, an other officials, a player, a fan or anyone in the gym. As long as I'm on the floor for warmups, game time, half time, timeouts, inbetween quarters, inbetween calls, until I leave the gym and the game outcome has been determined. I will give a T to a player.


. .

Soooo...what's "the other side of the coin" that you can see in this?

Ref_ Fred Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:53am

worst technical ever
 
You guys are reading to deep into this.

Read the very first post. The poster never mentioned that he was cursed at.

My final words to this topic.

Thank you fellow Officials

Junker Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:40pm

I don't see why cursing matters in this situation. The new rule clearly states that a player pulling their jersey out in the confines recieves a T. This is just as clear as a player using profanity is a T. Both would need to be called regardless of the game situation. We enforce the rules as written. If we don't agree with a rule, maybe we need to take steps to get it changed in the off season.

rockyroad Wed Apr 26, 2006 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker
I don't see why cursing matters in this situation. The new rule clearly states that a player pulling their jersey out in the confines recieves a T. This is just as clear as a player using profanity is a T. Both would need to be called regardless of the game situation. We enforce the rules as written. If we don't agree with a rule, maybe we need to take steps to get it changed in the off season.

Because the original situation took place before that particular rule went into effect...

Junker Wed Apr 26, 2006 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
Because the original situation took place before that particular rule went into effect...

I didn't get that from the OP. Now it's no brainer.

Raymond Wed Apr 26, 2006 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker
Both would need to be called regardless of the game situation. We enforce the rules as written. If we don't agree with a rule, maybe we need to take steps to get it changed in the off season.

Junker, if ref'n were based solely on absolutes then I should be calling a lot more techs.

I know I haven't called a tech everytime I heard a curse word on the court. Now, yes, an overwhelming majority of the time I have, but can you honestly say that everytime you've heard a curse word uttered that you've called a tech? I have had situations where I've heard players curse at themselves for making a bad play. I've gone up to them and said "I know you're just frustrated with yourself but you can't use that language out here". Now, by the book I should be calling a tech everytime that situation occurs, but I don't and until someone who signs my paycheck tells me I'm wrong for doing so I will continue handle similar situations that way.

I think that's the point Ref_Fred is trying to make. There may be a situation where by the letter of the rulebook you are supposed to called a tech, or foul, or a violation, but you choose based upon your particular game management philosophy to pass.

I am in no way passing any kind of judgement on the PIAA game, I didn't even read that entire post. I'm just addressing your point concerning absolute T's.

Jurassic Referee Wed Apr 26, 2006 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Junker, if ref'n were based solely on absolutes then I should be calling a lot more techs.

I know I haven't called a tech everytime I heard a curse word on the court. Now, yes, an overwhelming majority of the time I have, but can you honestly say that everytime you've heard a curse word uttered that you've called a tech? I have had situations where I've heard players curse at themselves for making a bad play. I've gone up to them and said "I know you're just frustrated with yourself but you can't use that language out here". Now, by the book I should be calling a tech everytime that situation occurs, but I don't and until someone who signs my paycheck tells me I'm wrong for doing so I will continue handle similar situations that way.

I think that's the point Ref_Fred is trying to make. There may be a situation where by the letter of the rulebook you are supposed to called a tech, or foul, or a violation, but you choose based upon your particular game management philosophy to pass.

I am in no way passing any kind of judgement on the PIAA game, I didn't even read that entire post. I'm just addressing your point concerning absolute T's.

In the PIAA game, the player cursed <b>at</b> the official. That's the absolute that everybody has been responding to. Where do you stand now? Is that an absolute "T" or not?

Adam Wed Apr 26, 2006 07:20pm

I think the question now is whether an official could ignore the shirt pulling at the end of a game. I'd say, given the POE, that he probably shouldn't. As Junker said, take care of that early in the season and it won't happen in the post season.
Even before the POE, this call could have been made with justification. Pulling your shirt out seems to me a half-a$$ way of "restraining" yourself. If you're going to walk away, do it without the theatrics.

Nevadaref Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker
I don't see why cursing matters in this situation. The new rule clearly states that a player pulling their jersey out in the confines recieves a T. This is just as clear as a player using profanity is a T. Both would need to be called regardless of the game situation. We enforce the rules as written. If we don't agree with a rule, maybe we need to take steps to get it changed in the off season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad
Because the original situation took place before that particular rule went into effect...

Huh???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker
I didn't get that from the OP. Now it's no brainer.

Guys, I'm confused now. :confused: Have you seen the POEs for 2006-07? I just checked the nfhs website and only the topics are listed. There are no details given. Specifically, it has the following enumerated:
1. Concussions
2. Uniforms
3. Time-outs
4. Intentional Fouls
5. Rule Enforcement/Proper Signal Use

I can't find anything else about the new POEs. Did I miss something?
The post which I made earlier in this thread is from LAST season's POEs (2005-06).

SMEngmann Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker
I'm going to disagree. If we would all pay attention to this and uniformly (pun intended) take care of this during the season, it wouldn't put us between a rock and a hard place. This is a rule, it should be enforced. Players are expected to be disciplined enough not to travel late in the game, but if they do, you go get it. I won't say I never let a T go for pulling the shirt out (I did this year, a girl yanked it out at the bench after fouling out and I "didn't see it" because it was at the far end of the court). I should have made that call. I'm not saying I totally agree with the rule because I don't, but if its there, we need to enforce it. As always, just my $.02.

I understand your point here, but there's a huge difference between a travel and a technical at a late point in the game. Violations are part of the game and they are black and white, requiring much less judgement than do techs. The problem with the POE is that it removes the ability of the official to use proper judgement and to take into account all of the variables of a situation. One of the main purposes of the T is to allow the officials to gain and maintain control of the game.

In the situation described, we're down the stretch of a state championship game in a tight contest. These teams have worked for 5 months to get to this level and this game, and good officials will have that in mind, because emotions can be magnified on such a stage. I know the T was for cursing, but had it been for pulling up the jersey, that T would be gratuitous and over officious in my mind. What is gained from the T there in terms of game control? Likely nothing, and at worst, the T could cause the roof to cave in. An official with good judgement here turns and walks away, especially since the player had already fouled out, knowing that there could be an emotional reaction, not anticipating the emotional reaction and responding with a T.

Does that mean that we should throw out the rulebook? No, but we should bear in mind why we call technicals to begin with, the primary reason is to maintain control/improve the conditions of the game. This T does neither in my mind.

Nevadaref Thu Apr 27, 2006 01:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
I know the T was for cursing, but had it been for pulling up the jersey, that T would be gratuitous and over officious in my mind.

Then you may want to reconsider working NFHS basketball games. Whether you are a fantastic official or not, if you aren't willing to call what the Federation wants, then this merits some thought. There are other levels and systems of basketball which you could work and be more free to handle these situations in the manner you please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
An official with good judgement here turns and walks away, especially since the player had already fouled out, knowing that there could be an emotional reaction, not anticipating the emotional reaction and responding with a T.

Does that mean that we should throw out the rulebook? No, but ...

Well, it certainly seems that you are advocating just that. How else can one take your recommendation that the official should turn away from this? BTW this is exactly the opposite approach that the NFHS is telling its officials to take.

I again point to the 2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS, which contains the following directives:

"1. Sporting Behavior. ..... Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed:
A. Uniforms: Players are increasingly using their uniforms in unsporting ways. ... pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display; and removing the jersey either on the court or near the team bench, especially after a disqualification.

... Coaches bear a great responsibility in ensuring uniforms stay on team members. Officials must enforce the rule."

Please notice how what is in red and blue directly conflicts with your opinion.

Again, these are not my words, but those written by the NFHS Rules Committee. They, not we, are the boss when it comes to NFHS basketball.

SMEngmann Thu Apr 27, 2006 02:59am

Nevada, I understand where you're coming from. My point originally was that this is a terrible POE because it advocates officials being overly officious and can put us in situations where we might be forced to call a technical which does nothing to help the game and, in fact could really hurt the game. Overly officious POEs have been, in my opinion, a disturbing trend in NFHS over the last several years. For instance the POE last year on flopping, and the one to call Ts for running off the court (before the rule change to violation). Why Fed wants more Ts and trusts the judgement of officials less is beyond me, but in the real world, calling these things can often put game officials on an island. The new uniform regulations are yet another example of those in the Fed office making it tougher on us to do our jobs.

That being said, as an official, do I deliberately disobey what the NFHS says and go by my own rules? No, I call the game as I am instructed to by my assignors. Does that mean I have to like what I'm told to do and the new rules? No, but I'm an official, not an assignor, and not on the rules committee, so I call the game the way my superiors want it called. Doesn't mean I have to agree though with everything that comes down from the higher ups.

One other point, much of officiating has to deal with the spirit and intent of rules, as you well know. Rulebook officials often get in all sorts of trouble with players and coaches and routinely manage to lose control of games (at least those who I've seen). It seems like with the POEs, the rules committee wants us all to move in the direction of being rulebook officials, which I strongly disagree with.

Rich Thu Apr 27, 2006 06:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
As I stated earlier, Not knowing all circumstance, Yes I would have T'd him in a NY second. But for him putting his shirt in his mouth and walking away as the posting stated. I would have looked at what was going on in the game. That is all part of what is discussed in Pregame. we make it mandatory. we normally try to discuss all game situation and even then we don't cover all, it's imposible. we "TRY". We ask that we meet at for 1 to 1 1/2 hour before game time.

As an official, I try not to be the outcome of the game.....

That is all I am stating, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's comments.


By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend.

Dan_ref Thu Apr 27, 2006 06:46am

Excellent post! I agree 137%.



Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
Nevada, I understand where you're coming from. My point originally was that this is a terrible POE because it advocates officials being overly officious and can put us in situations where we might be forced to call a technical which does nothing to help the game and, in fact could really hurt the game. Overly officious POEs have been, in my opinion, a disturbing trend in NFHS over the last several years. For instance the POE last year on flopping, and the one to call Ts for running off the court (before the rule change to violation). Why Fed wants more Ts and trusts the judgement of officials less is beyond me, but in the real world, calling these things can often put game officials on an island. The new uniform regulations are yet another example of those in the Fed office making it tougher on us to do our jobs.

That being said, as an official, do I deliberately disobey what the NFHS says and go by my own rules? No, I call the game as I am instructed to by my assignors. Does that mean I have to like what I'm told to do and the new rules? No, but I'm an official, not an assignor, and not on the rules committee, so I call the game the way my superiors want it called. Doesn't mean I have to agree though with everything that comes down from the higher ups.

One other point, much of officiating has to deal with the spirit and intent of rules, as you well know. Rulebook officials often get in all sorts of trouble with players and coaches and routinely manage to lose control of games (at least those who I've seen). It seems like with the POEs, the rules committee wants us all to move in the direction of being rulebook officials, which I strongly disagree with.


Ref_ Fred Thu Apr 27, 2006 07:33am

Worst technical ever
 
I'm going against my better judgment here. In my earlier post I said I have nothing else to say. I also know that this is a good forum for each and everyone of us to share our expereinces and knowledge. I 200% agree with
SMEngmann posting.

let me describe a similar situation with a speeding ticket.
How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket and warranted, yet you tried to get out of it by making some excuse. Maybe the police officer listened to your excuse and maybe not. Some of us may have gotten away without a ticket. The officer looks at your DMV records to which they have access to. So if you were a repeated speeder you got a ticket. Same goes for this player. If this player was a kid that was known to be a repeated offender than he diserved it. This may have been his first offense.

So going back to what I said and SMEngmann vaalidated. Look at the whole situation.

Jurassic Referee Thu Apr 27, 2006 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
let me describe a similar situation with a speeding ticket.
How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket and warranted, yet you tried to get out of it by making some excuse. Maybe the police officer listened to your excuse and maybe not. Some of us may have gotten away without a ticket. The officer looks at your DMV records to which they have access to. So if you were a repeated speeder you got a ticket. Same goes for this player. If this player was a kid that was known to be a repeated offender than he diserved it. This may have been his first offense.

Sooooooo......

If a kid who has never said "boo" out on the floor all of a sudden decides to tell you to "phuk off", you'd let him slide because it's his first time?

Great logic......

Keeping track of who's been naughty and who's been nice is Santa Claus' job, not ours.

Just call the game and quit over-thinking it.

M&M Guy Thu Apr 27, 2006 09:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Huh???



Guys, I'm confused now. :confused: Have you seen the POEs for 2006-07? I just checked the nfhs website and only the topics are listed. There are no details given. Specifically, it has the following enumerated:
1. Concussions
2. Uniforms
3. Time-outs
4. Intentional Fouls
5. Rule Enforcement/Proper Signal Use

I can't find anything else about the new POEs. Did I miss something?
The post which I made earlier in this thread is from LAST season's POEs (2005-06).

Nevada - check the date of the original post. This is a reserrected thread. The OP was made during the '04-'05 season.

Raymond Thu Apr 27, 2006 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
In the PIAA game, the player cursed <b>at</b> the official. That's the absolute that everybody has been responding to. Where do you stand now? Is that an absolute "T" or not?

I wasn't at that game and my post had nothing to do with that game. But, yeah, if a player curses at me, my response is a 'T'.

Dan_ref Thu Apr 27, 2006 09:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Sooooooo......

If a kid who has never said "boo" out on the floor all of a sudden decides to tell you to "phuk off", you'd let him slide because it's his first time?

What if the kid is Vietnamese? I think "phuck off" in Vietnamese means...err....never mind.

And 1 other thing JR - what if the kid sez "boo" followed by "sheet". What ya gonna do then, eh tough guy?

Jurassic Referee Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan_ref
And 1 other thing JR - what if the kid sez "boo" followed by "sheet". What ya gonna do then, eh tough guy?

If it's his first time, I'll try to be gentle.

Ref_ Fred Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:53pm

Worst technical ever
 
I indicated yesterday, that if a player coach says any foul language to an official, player or fan. Its with no doubt a technical foul... If he is frustrated at himself for commiting an stupid error, I will state it again. I will look at the whole situation. And Please I am making my remarks based on the very first posting which does not indicate that any foul language was used. Below is the exzct quote, no mention of foul language.


Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over

M&M Guy Thu Apr 27, 2006 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
I indicated yesterday, that if a player coach says any foul language to an official, player or fan. Its with no doubt a technical foul... If he is frustrated at himself for commiting an stupid error, I will state it again. I will look at the whole situation. And Please I am making my remarks based on the very first posting which does not indicate that any foul language was used.

In the context of when the original post was made, this was good discussion about whether or not this should be a T. However, in the context of current NF rules, it's a no-brainer: automatic T. To say you would have to "look at what is going on in the game" is screwing the other team out of a penalty. It's right there in black and white. Now, we can discuss all day whether or not we think it's over-officious. But there's no discussion as to whether or not it should be called.

Ref_ Fred Thu Apr 27, 2006 01:22pm

Worst technical ever
 
You are 150% correct. Black and white states that....

M&M Guy Thu Apr 27, 2006 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred
You are 150% correct.

Dang it, I'm slipping. I thought I was 163% correct.

A Pennsylvania Coach Fri Apr 28, 2006 03:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLydic
The 2003 state basketball championships debuting at the new GIANT Center will be remembered for an ugly incident that took place in the Boys Class AA final. A bench-clearing brawl erupted in the second quarter between Sto-Rox and Camp Hill Trinity. Apparently, the fight began when Sto-Rox junior John Geiger was about to inbound the basketball in front of the Trinity bench. Geiger claims he was grabbed by one of the players sitting on the bench. He then turned around and punched Shamrocks reserve Matt Wesner, starting the melee, which included fans coming onto the floor from the stands. Geiger was tossed from the game. Later in the contest, teammate Davon Huger was ejected for swinging at a Shamrocks player. Camp Hill Trinity won the game 66-49.

Damn Coach, you're 0 for 2.

A Pennsylvania Coach, consider the source.

Geiger wasn't in the brawl. His actions started things, but he was off to the side the whole time. I was at the game.

icallfouls Fri Apr 28, 2006 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend.

The last sentence is your bail out right? "... right call you can defend." It is either the right call or it isn't according to the previous "don't want to be deciding the outcome crap." You must work at Burger King, where you can have it your way, or is that both ways?

Surely, most of us remember the official working the ACC tournament that called a T on the NCState (?) bench for the water clean up at the end of a time out. Sure, its in the rules, and the official enforced it, which you are advocating. He could even defend it and did so. Well, the ACC assignor yanked the official out of the tournament and publically stated that he should have used better judgment.

Using the reasoning that many have expressed on this topic, the T should have been called and it should have been supported, when the fact remains that it was not the right call, at the right time, in the right place. T'ing a player for pulling out their jersey in this situation is not high on my list either.

For those officials that would support the T for untucking the jersey, did you T players every time they left the court (prior to the rules change)? More than likely you used your best judgment rather than strictly enforcing the NFHS rulebook. If you did, or did not, you helped decide the outcome of the game. The difference is not that extreme.

BLydic Fri Apr 28, 2006 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Geiger wasn't in the brawl. His actions started things, but he was off to the side the whole time. I was at the game.

Coach,

Your response is classic. He wasn't in the brawl, his actions (just a punch) started things. WOW!

In your original post regarding how much of a JOKE the PIAA is, you stated that a full out brawl took place without an ejection. You were wrong, Geiger was removed from the game, no? His being in front of the opposing teams bench is a key point in how this fiasco started, right? Would your suggestion be to just leave things as they were? No, I got it, we can just rely on the coaches to keep their bench under control? :rolleyes:

In our chapter meetings and clinics we have discussed this direction from the PIAA because we feel that, at times, teams can be put at a disadvantage as a result of moving the throw-in spot. We are trying to ensure this is held to a minimum.

But, it was the actions of two opposing players that caused this reaction from the PIAA and in combination with some game time common sense, the problem has been eliminated. Granted, it might not be the best way, but I don't have any other suggestions. Do you?

SMEngmann Fri Apr 28, 2006 09:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend.

Rich, I also disagree with you here. As officials, although we strive to be consistent, must be mindful of the situation in the game. In terms of fouls and violations on the court, we must call it the same way 3 minutes in and with 3 seconds to go, but with technicals, it's different because our reasoning for calling technicals is largely dependant on circumstance. Now there are no brainer Ts that we get all the time, but others are more subjective.

As an example, earlier in the game, technical fouls can be used to help maintain control of the game. Ignoring something or letting something go early, such as a frustrated player popping off/slamming the floor, pulling out his jersey, etc, could easily lead to a loss of control of the game, and rightly should be penalized. With 3 seconds left in the game, we've already established the level of control for the night, and given the point in the game, the impact is far more punitive.

I think the question to be asked is, why do we call technicals, and what is their purpose within the game? Since in my mind they are a tool to improve/control the game, to me they are dependant on circumstance, which means a T early in the game, if not one of the "automatics" may not be a T later on.

Nevadaref Sat Apr 29, 2006 01:14am

remember it's their game
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
Nevada, I understand where you're coming from. My point originally was that this is a terrible POE because it advocates officials being overly officious and can put us in situations where we might be forced to call a technical which does nothing to help the game and, in fact could really hurt the game. Overly officious POEs have been, in my opinion, a disturbing trend in NFHS over the last several years. For instance the POE last year on flopping, and the one to call Ts for running off the court (before the rule change to violation). Why Fed wants more Ts and trusts the judgement of officials less is beyond me, but in the real world, calling these things can often put game officials on an island. The new uniform regulations are yet another example of those in the Fed office making it tougher on us to do our jobs.

That being said, as an official, do I deliberately disobey what the NFHS says and go by my own rules? No, I call the game as I am instructed to by my assignors. Does that mean I have to like what I'm told to do and the new rules? No, but I'm an official, not an assignor, and not on the rules committee, so I call the game the way my superiors want it called. Doesn't mean I have to agree though with everything that comes down from the higher ups.

One other point, much of officiating has to deal with the spirit and intent of rules, as you well know. Rulebook officials often get in all sorts of trouble with players and coaches and routinely manage to lose control of games (at least those who I've seen). It seems like with the POEs, the rules committee wants us all to move in the direction of being rulebook officials, which I strongly disagree with.

Whatever your opinion of the POEs just remember that the game belongs to the NFHS and they can do whatever they wish with it. If that means putting in strict rules on behavior which you consider terrible and overly officious, that's the way it goes.
It seems to me that the NFHS is attempting to keep the high school game from degenerating into streetball or the NBA and I support it.
As for enforcing these POEs, I just tell the coaches and players that this is HS basketball and you can't do that here. Summer leagues, camps, college ball, etc. is different. Like any other change, they are difficult at first, but after a couple of seasons everyone comes to understand what is unacceptable and stops doing it. The key is that you have to have consistent enforcement by the officials, coaches, and administrators in your area. That is the tough part.

So, what to your "higher ups" tell you to do? For example, what were your instructions on handling the coaching box and the untucked jerseys last season?

Nevadaref Sat Apr 29, 2006 01:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Nevada - check the date of the original post. This is a reserrected thread. The OP was made during the '04-'05 season.

Okay, missed that. Actually, I never even thought to check. Of course, my opinion is that this action (pulling out the shirt in an unsporting gesture) still fell within the purview of the rule in force at the time that game was played (10-3-7). It just wasn't delineated quite so clearly in a POE yet, but as you well know, the POEs don't change the rules, they merely stress certain parts of them.

SMEngmann Sat Apr 29, 2006 03:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
So, what to your "higher ups" tell you to do? For example, what were your instructions on handling the coaching box and the untucked jerseys last season?

I agree with what you said earlier in the post, the game does belong to NFHS, so working those games, although I don't agree with the POEs, they put them there for a reason, and I gotta call them that way.

As for my higher ups, I work a number of associations and for a large number of assignors, and it varied based on the assignor, some were stricter than others on how they wanted the box enforced. Overall, the message was, though, do what's right for the game and don't do anything to interfere or draw undo attention on the officials. As long as the games remained under control, my higher ups were happy.


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