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Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over.
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Pulling your shirt out, in frustration, on the court is automatic around here and I would assume most places. The player needs to learn to keep his head and go to the bench. Good T in my book.
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I don't really have a problem with the T there. Not saying it's an automatic, but if the official felt it was warranted, it's kind of hard to argue when the kid is half undressed in response to the call.
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I would agree it sounds like a good T. Just cause it's the championship game, doesn't excuse a player from committing unsportsmanlike conduct, which the official ruled it was.
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I am sure that Joe Willie is proud of is alma mater winning the state championship. And I agree with the other posters regarding the technical foul. MTD, Sr. |
No need for this T.
The official needs to recognize time, score and human emotion. A natural reaction is to be upset. However, he could have done much worse that would definitely be a T. He restrained himself, with the hope that his team could still have a chance. The referee interfered in an unnecessary manner. Bad call. |
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I don't read in the original post, Rich, where it said "over his head".
Fact is a many foul calls are accompanied by a look of frustration on a player's face. Including fouls called much earlier in the game. And then a T for eating his shirt? |
As PA Coach was not on the floor or in the official's position, we do not know what might have also been said. I had one of these earlier in the year where the player said, "You need to call the ****ing foul." I heard and his coach heard it. I popped him, and his coacj sat him down. A football partner works at the same school, and told me that the kid had it coming, even though no one else heard it.
In short, we don't know what else might have transpired. |
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I guess I will preface (unnecessarily) all future posts with, "...if that was all that happened. If other actions occured that we may not be aware of, I reserve the right to change my response." It did say in the original text that not a word was spoken. Seeing that, we either: <li>accept the poster's account that there was no verbal communication by the player</li> - in this case I can't believe a T was issued to putting the bottom of your shirt in your mouth <li>discount the poster's account and assume the possibility that something was verbalized</li> - if this is the case, then why stop at the verbalization. Perhaps the poster didn't see the player flip the bird to the official. Maybe he 'grabbed himself'. Maybe this, maybe that. We're now reading into the posts, folks. Most people discern that "walking away" means that the player is not hanging around the referee. |
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Neither of those events happened, therefore there is no requirement to do anything related to going to the bench. |
(JugglingReferee No need for this T.
The official needs to recognize time, score and human emotion. A natural reaction is to be upset. However, he could have done much worse that would definitely be a T. He restrained himself, with the hope that his team could still have a chance. The referee interfered in an unnecessary manner. Bad call. ) Just so Juggling doesnt feel alone - I too probably would not have a called a T in this situation. |
Coach, there's more to consider then just the shirt thing. Has he already been warned for smack talking, or for begging for calls? Who know?
Oh yea, there's been worse, I can assure you. |
So much for the "worst technical ever" bullsh*t!
This story says the "T" was for cursing <b>at</b> the ref <b>before</b> he pulled the shirt out. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05079/474474.stm Amazing what you find out when you you finally hear the official's side of a story. |
If he said something that warranted a T, fine. They did show a replay that had a closeup of the kid almost immediately after the foul call and you could tell he didn't say anything from the start of the closeup until the tech call, but it is possible that he said something instantly after the call.
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I'm away for a few days and all you do while I'm gone is debate technical fouls. What a time to take a vacation. :D
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First off, he needs to head to the bench because he had picked up his 5th foul. Secondly, I understand this is a big game, but I don't think we should change what we expect for sportsmanship just because it is. We are expected to work our best game and be professional every night, why are players and coaches not expected to do the same? When it is something obvious to everyone like pulling your shirt out on the floor, it needs to be addressed. I've always kind of looked at it as we don't give technicals, we assess them when they are earned.
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Man, I hate being right all the time! :) |
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I think I mentioned this in another post but here goes anyway. In a state final that one of our crews worked, the score was 15-2. The trailing coach started to officiate. He was given a stop sign shortly there afterwards. A couple of minutes later, he asked, "Are you gonna call a ****ing travel?" Whack. The fact that we're playing on a bigger stage is not an issue. |
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See what you can do when you're retired? :D :D |
You are right, he doesn't have to go until he's told. I just skipped that part in my post. I should have been more specific.
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consider the source
"PIAA officials" - the same people that oversaw a full-scale brawl in the first half of a state championship without an ejection, then responded by moving inbound passes in front of a team's bench to one end or the other. JOKE
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Damn...I don't recall you being that beaten down & bitter...kinda sad. Ah well. |
"PIAA officials"
I read this to mean not game officials, but officials in the organization that is the PIAA. I have always had some differences of opinion with that body. Of course, I've had a few with game officials, but nothing quite so philosophically different.
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Interesting how this thread pops up again, especially after how this past season the NF determined this exact situation to be a T.
Maybe it shows that in the previous season it may not have been that bad a call, but actually one the committe wanted called. |
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I wasn't for sure what I missed whenever I saw this thread at the top... kind of sad it was bumped back to the top to take a shot at the organization. |
Many people bite their lip to prevent themselves from saying something.
Maybe this player bits his shirt. By biting his shirt, he could be preventing himself from verbalizing a profanity. Maybe it's his own preventative playing. I like to penalize the more obvious situations, such as profanity, punching the matts on a wall, hand gestures, or throwing a mouthguard at me. Edit: Knowing now that the player cursed at the official, the T was the proper course of action. Once a player swears, the shirt biting is not meant to show up the official. It's just personal frustration by then. |
proper call
any time a new rule or point of emphasis comes into effect, i am going to call it. i consider it an insult to the folk on the rules committee to ignore their efforts
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I resent someone trying to steal my title. I called the worst technical ever; just last year. I know, because the coach told me so. :D
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I think this is a good discussion to bring up with the POEs for 06-07 having just come out. The POE of pulling the shirt out as a T in my opinion is a horrible POE because it basically puts an official between a rock and a hard place in a tight situation. Assuming the player hadn't cursed the official, if you're out there with a clear POE against pulling out the jersey as a T and a situation where an emotional and frustrated player is trying to show restraint, what do you do? If you issue a weak T here, you put a negative stamp on the game, but you uphold your duty to enforce the POEs (in my opinion strictly enforcing this is over-officious), or if you ignore or warn the action, then your assigning committee gets on you for not properly enforcing the POEs. This is why the rules committee should be more careful in determining proper POEs.
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2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS 1. Sporting Behavior. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned with player, coach and fan behavior. While administrators continue to focus on solutions, it is imperative that all parties involved accept responsibility and improve behavior. Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed: A. Uniforms: Players are increasingly using their uniforms in unsporting ways. Examples include: Holding the uniform out from the chest area to display the team name to the opponent or fans; pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display; and removing the jersey either on the court or near the team bench, especially after a disqualification. The committee expects jerseys to be worn properly and remain on. New Rule 3-4-15 adds, "A player shall not remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt in the confines of the playing area." The result is a technical foul. Uniforms must be worn as intended and the rule must be enforced. The jersey must be tucked in and shorts must be worn properly. When a player is in violation of the rule, the player is directed to leave the game. While an untucked jersey during the normal course of play is understandable until it can be corrected, too often there are multiple warnings for clear violations. Coaches bear a great responsibility in ensuring uniforms stay on team members. Officials must enforce the rule. |
Worst Technical ever
I agree with the call, but not know all the surrounding cirmcumstances I really wouldn't comment other than some points to remember for the future. We are all human, we all make mistakes, but as an official we need to keep game management in mind. That call may have turned the outcome of the game. Could that official held from making that call?
I would like some opinions and comments on that question. |
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Lah me...... That ain't game management imo, Fred. That a lack of testicular fortitude. |
worst technical ever
As I stated earlier, Not knowing all circumstance, Yes I would have T'd him in a NY second. But for him putting his shirt in his mouth and walking away as the posting stated. I would have looked at what was going on in the game. That is all part of what is discussed in Pregame. we make it mandatory. we normally try to discuss all game situation and even then we don't cover all, it's imposible. we "TRY". We ask that we meet at for 1 to 1 1/2 hour before game time.
As an official, I try not to be the outcome of the game..... That is all I am stating, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's comments. |
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Just call the game consistently and evenly from beginning to end, and no one will ever have any real complaints with you. Swallowing your whistle at the end because you don't want to be the "outcome of the game" is just wrong imo, if that is what you are referring to. If you ignore a righteous foul or violation at the end of a game by trying to rationalize that you didn't want to affect the outcome, then you really <b>are</b> affecting the outcome by screwing the team that didn't commit that foul or violation. Jmo..... |
worst technical ever
I'm not going to go into anymore detail. I agree with you. Call consistently and call evenly.
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I do think there are officials that talk themselves into not making a tough call by rationalizing that they don't want to be "determining the outcome". But they are, because they're screwing the team that didn't commit the foul or violation out of a posession or free throws. The only way an official helps determine an outcome is by making a wrong call, or no-call because they were out of position, or didn't have the kahonas. |
worst technical ever
M&M I agree with you call what you see. I meant to outcome mostly toward the T'. Was it warranted. Possibly so. For all the right reasons. I again try to defend my post, based on the the original post stated." for putting his shirt in his mouth and wlking away"
If he cursed and put his shirt in his mouth and walking away. Hell yea T him up. Again, the Player was probably frustrated, his 5th, game turning play, was he a senior, was he the top player and probably 10 other reasons. Non excusable. Let's get that out of the way. I also see the other side of the coin, high visibility, News media, High school officials, Mayor, governor and maybe even President. There is no wrong answer to any posts. They are just opinions, from the look of it. there are many views on the issue. Most importantly I wasn't there and don't know what I would have done if I was. We are all being Monday morning officials of what we would have done. He made the right call. |
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Damn Coach, you're 0 for 2. A Pennsylvania Coach, consider the source. |
worst technical ever
Never said that. Player will always get a T from me anytime a player, coach, bench personnel ever curse at me, an other officials, a player, a fan or anyone in the gym. As long as I'm on the floor for warmups, game time, half time, timeouts, inbetween quarters, inbetween calls, until I leave the gym and the game outcome has been determined. I will give a T to a player.
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worst technical ever
You guys are reading to deep into this.
Read the very first post. The poster never mentioned that he was cursed at. My final words to this topic. Thank you fellow Officials |
I don't see why cursing matters in this situation. The new rule clearly states that a player pulling their jersey out in the confines recieves a T. This is just as clear as a player using profanity is a T. Both would need to be called regardless of the game situation. We enforce the rules as written. If we don't agree with a rule, maybe we need to take steps to get it changed in the off season.
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I know I haven't called a tech everytime I heard a curse word on the court. Now, yes, an overwhelming majority of the time I have, but can you honestly say that everytime you've heard a curse word uttered that you've called a tech? I have had situations where I've heard players curse at themselves for making a bad play. I've gone up to them and said "I know you're just frustrated with yourself but you can't use that language out here". Now, by the book I should be calling a tech everytime that situation occurs, but I don't and until someone who signs my paycheck tells me I'm wrong for doing so I will continue handle similar situations that way. I think that's the point Ref_Fred is trying to make. There may be a situation where by the letter of the rulebook you are supposed to called a tech, or foul, or a violation, but you choose based upon your particular game management philosophy to pass. I am in no way passing any kind of judgement on the PIAA game, I didn't even read that entire post. I'm just addressing your point concerning absolute T's. |
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I think the question now is whether an official could ignore the shirt pulling at the end of a game. I'd say, given the POE, that he probably shouldn't. As Junker said, take care of that early in the season and it won't happen in the post season.
Even before the POE, this call could have been made with justification. Pulling your shirt out seems to me a half-a$$ way of "restraining" yourself. If you're going to walk away, do it without the theatrics. |
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1. Concussions 2. Uniforms 3. Time-outs 4. Intentional Fouls 5. Rule Enforcement/Proper Signal Use I can't find anything else about the new POEs. Did I miss something? The post which I made earlier in this thread is from LAST season's POEs (2005-06). |
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In the situation described, we're down the stretch of a state championship game in a tight contest. These teams have worked for 5 months to get to this level and this game, and good officials will have that in mind, because emotions can be magnified on such a stage. I know the T was for cursing, but had it been for pulling up the jersey, that T would be gratuitous and over officious in my mind. What is gained from the T there in terms of game control? Likely nothing, and at worst, the T could cause the roof to cave in. An official with good judgement here turns and walks away, especially since the player had already fouled out, knowing that there could be an emotional reaction, not anticipating the emotional reaction and responding with a T. Does that mean that we should throw out the rulebook? No, but we should bear in mind why we call technicals to begin with, the primary reason is to maintain control/improve the conditions of the game. This T does neither in my mind. |
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I again point to the 2005-06 POINTS OF EMPHASIS, which contains the following directives: "1. Sporting Behavior. ..... Specifically, the committee wants the following addressed: A. Uniforms: Players are increasingly using their uniforms in unsporting ways. ... pulling the uniform out of the shorts in an emotional display; and removing the jersey either on the court or near the team bench, especially after a disqualification. ... Coaches bear a great responsibility in ensuring uniforms stay on team members. Officials must enforce the rule." Please notice how what is in red and blue directly conflicts with your opinion. Again, these are not my words, but those written by the NFHS Rules Committee. They, not we, are the boss when it comes to NFHS basketball. |
Nevada, I understand where you're coming from. My point originally was that this is a terrible POE because it advocates officials being overly officious and can put us in situations where we might be forced to call a technical which does nothing to help the game and, in fact could really hurt the game. Overly officious POEs have been, in my opinion, a disturbing trend in NFHS over the last several years. For instance the POE last year on flopping, and the one to call Ts for running off the court (before the rule change to violation). Why Fed wants more Ts and trusts the judgement of officials less is beyond me, but in the real world, calling these things can often put game officials on an island. The new uniform regulations are yet another example of those in the Fed office making it tougher on us to do our jobs.
That being said, as an official, do I deliberately disobey what the NFHS says and go by my own rules? No, I call the game as I am instructed to by my assignors. Does that mean I have to like what I'm told to do and the new rules? No, but I'm an official, not an assignor, and not on the rules committee, so I call the game the way my superiors want it called. Doesn't mean I have to agree though with everything that comes down from the higher ups. One other point, much of officiating has to deal with the spirit and intent of rules, as you well know. Rulebook officials often get in all sorts of trouble with players and coaches and routinely manage to lose control of games (at least those who I've seen). It seems like with the POEs, the rules committee wants us all to move in the direction of being rulebook officials, which I strongly disagree with. |
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By not penalizing bad sportsmanship, you are costing the team that maintains composure. I hate this "don't want to be deciding the outcome" crap. If it's a T 3 minutes in, it's one with 3 seconds left. Just make sure it's the right call you can defend. |
Excellent post! I agree 137%.
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Worst technical ever
I'm going against my better judgment here. In my earlier post I said I have nothing else to say. I also know that this is a good forum for each and everyone of us to share our expereinces and knowledge. I 200% agree with
SMEngmann posting. let me describe a similar situation with a speeding ticket. How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket and warranted, yet you tried to get out of it by making some excuse. Maybe the police officer listened to your excuse and maybe not. Some of us may have gotten away without a ticket. The officer looks at your DMV records to which they have access to. So if you were a repeated speeder you got a ticket. Same goes for this player. If this player was a kid that was known to be a repeated offender than he diserved it. This may have been his first offense. So going back to what I said and SMEngmann vaalidated. Look at the whole situation. |
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If a kid who has never said "boo" out on the floor all of a sudden decides to tell you to "phuk off", you'd let him slide because it's his first time? Great logic...... Keeping track of who's been naughty and who's been nice is Santa Claus' job, not ours. Just call the game and quit over-thinking it. |
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And 1 other thing JR - what if the kid sez "boo" followed by "sheet". What ya gonna do then, eh tough guy? |
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Worst technical ever
I indicated yesterday, that if a player coach says any foul language to an official, player or fan. Its with no doubt a technical foul... If he is frustrated at himself for commiting an stupid error, I will state it again. I will look at the whole situation. And Please I am making my remarks based on the very first posting which does not indicate that any foul language was used. Below is the exzct quote, no mention of foul language.
Pennsylvania AA state championship, about to end right now. York Catholic had a ten-point lead earlier in the quarter, but a nice press has Beaver Falls up 58-54. York Catholic misses a shot with 1:50 left and BF rebounds. A quick foul on a YC kid, turns out to be his fifth. He is of course frustrated, but rather than saying a word, or jumping up and down, he walks a couple steps away, pulls his shirt up and puts the bottom of it in his mouth exposing half his torso. His face is clearly showing frustration. Official calls a T. BF hits 4 of 4 then 1 of 2 on the ensuing possession, and the game is over |
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Worst technical ever
You are 150% correct. Black and white states that....
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Surely, most of us remember the official working the ACC tournament that called a T on the NCState (?) bench for the water clean up at the end of a time out. Sure, its in the rules, and the official enforced it, which you are advocating. He could even defend it and did so. Well, the ACC assignor yanked the official out of the tournament and publically stated that he should have used better judgment. Using the reasoning that many have expressed on this topic, the T should have been called and it should have been supported, when the fact remains that it was not the right call, at the right time, in the right place. T'ing a player for pulling out their jersey in this situation is not high on my list either. For those officials that would support the T for untucking the jersey, did you T players every time they left the court (prior to the rules change)? More than likely you used your best judgment rather than strictly enforcing the NFHS rulebook. If you did, or did not, you helped decide the outcome of the game. The difference is not that extreme. |
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Your response is classic. He wasn't in the brawl, his actions (just a punch) started things. WOW! In your original post regarding how much of a JOKE the PIAA is, you stated that a full out brawl took place without an ejection. You were wrong, Geiger was removed from the game, no? His being in front of the opposing teams bench is a key point in how this fiasco started, right? Would your suggestion be to just leave things as they were? No, I got it, we can just rely on the coaches to keep their bench under control? :rolleyes: In our chapter meetings and clinics we have discussed this direction from the PIAA because we feel that, at times, teams can be put at a disadvantage as a result of moving the throw-in spot. We are trying to ensure this is held to a minimum. But, it was the actions of two opposing players that caused this reaction from the PIAA and in combination with some game time common sense, the problem has been eliminated. Granted, it might not be the best way, but I don't have any other suggestions. Do you? |
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As an example, earlier in the game, technical fouls can be used to help maintain control of the game. Ignoring something or letting something go early, such as a frustrated player popping off/slamming the floor, pulling out his jersey, etc, could easily lead to a loss of control of the game, and rightly should be penalized. With 3 seconds left in the game, we've already established the level of control for the night, and given the point in the game, the impact is far more punitive. I think the question to be asked is, why do we call technicals, and what is their purpose within the game? Since in my mind they are a tool to improve/control the game, to me they are dependant on circumstance, which means a T early in the game, if not one of the "automatics" may not be a T later on. |
remember it's their game
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It seems to me that the NFHS is attempting to keep the high school game from degenerating into streetball or the NBA and I support it. As for enforcing these POEs, I just tell the coaches and players that this is HS basketball and you can't do that here. Summer leagues, camps, college ball, etc. is different. Like any other change, they are difficult at first, but after a couple of seasons everyone comes to understand what is unacceptable and stops doing it. The key is that you have to have consistent enforcement by the officials, coaches, and administrators in your area. That is the tough part. So, what to your "higher ups" tell you to do? For example, what were your instructions on handling the coaching box and the untucked jerseys last season? |
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As for my higher ups, I work a number of associations and for a large number of assignors, and it varied based on the assignor, some were stricter than others on how they wanted the box enforced. Overall, the message was, though, do what's right for the game and don't do anything to interfere or draw undo attention on the officials. As long as the games remained under control, my higher ups were happy. |
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