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Just stirring up the pot a bit. If I post boring stuff, then no one would respond. I enjoy playing devil's advocate as it spurs debate. It's fun fun. I didn't know it was our job to ingratiate ourselves to the board. My bad. I'll try to do better. :)

Quote:

Originally posted by socalreff
Just stirring up the pot a bit. If I post boring stuff, then no one would respond. I enjoy playing devil's advocate as it spurs debate. It's fun fun. I didn't know it was our job to ingratiate ourselves to the board. My bad. I'll try to do better. :)

That's crap too. You weren't trying to stir anything up. You were trying to show off your extensive rules knowledge to all the dummies on this forum who "have a lack of rules knowledge". Unfortunately, all you showed us is that you don't know whatinthehell you're talking about.

Do you really think I care what the people here think of my knowledge? I don't even know any of your real names or your level of expertise. Sounds like people think extremely highly of themselves. I admire that level of self-respect. I just enjoy the banter back and forth.

Quote:

Originally posted by socalreff
Do you really think I care what the people here think of my knowledge? I don't even know any of your real names or your level of expertise. Sounds like people think extremely highly of themselves. I admire that level of self-respect. I just enjoy the banter back and forth.

Ya know what this board needs?

It needs a killfile.

I'm wondering why isn't lag time anywhere in the rule book and only in the case book?

Please don't take the other stuff so seriously. I really do enjoy spurring debate as I do with the students in my classroom. It makes us really think about situations and allows me to get clarifications for myself as well as those who are afraid to ask.

Quote:

Originally posted by socalreff
I'm wondering why isn't lag time anywhere in the rule book and only in the case book?

I'm wondering why you don't know the rules but you can still make statements like-- QUOTE "It's incredible to see the lack of rules knowledge in this forum" UNQUOTE.

When you've been here for a while, you may just find out that there's a whole buncha very, very knowledgeable officials posting here. I'm still learning from them. That's one of the reasons why I come here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by socalreff
I'm wondering why isn't lag time anywhere in the rule book and only in the case book?

I'm wondering why you don't know the rules but you can still make statements like-- QUOTE "It's incredible to see the lack of rules knowledge in this forum" UNQUOTE.

When you've been here for a while, you may just find out that there's a whole buncha very, very knowledgeable officials posting here. I'm still learning from them. That's one of the reasons why I come here.

I thought you come here because you know how much it annoys the rest of us.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

I thought you come here because you know how much it annoys the rest of us. [/B][/QUOTE]That too.

Quote:

There's a word for that: troll.

There's phrase for that: former member.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I have not seen the PT device in any game this year either. I have seen a few officials chop the clock from either the T or C when the Lead is administering an endline throw-in in the frontcourt.
This alone tells me that PT is not being used on those particular games.

Perhaps the women's mechanic is filtering into the men's side. I don't think that this is a bad mechanic either. I just hate the whistle prior to the endline throw-in that the women's game uses.

It's a GREAT mechanic. It lets everyone know that the ball is coming in play without having to look at the endline.

The saga continues

Just got this in the mail today. It is completely unedited except for removing the name of the tournament assignor.

Quote:

April 9, 2005

MIAA
83 Cedar St.
Milford, MA 01757

Re: St. Joe/Granby D3 Semi-final, March 9, 2005

To MIAA, Mr. Charles Elias and whomever else it may concern,

First off let me apologize for the delay in response to such serious allegations. I was just informed about Mr. Elias' accusations yesterday, Friday, April 8th and given a copy of his letter by my Athletic Director. I am not happy with the delay but I'm also not responsible for it.

Allow me to get to the issues and accusations Mr. Elias cites.

I have been coaching 28 years mostly at the college level, but for the last seven years as varsity coach at St. Joseph. I have never called an official a "two bit f***ing whore".

Unlike many coaches and officials I have interacted with throughout the years, I feel that the game is for the players. Spectators come to see them play not to see me coach or officials do their thing. I feel as a coach I owe it to my players, especially my seniors, to get them every second or fraction of a second they have coming especially in a Western Mass semifinal game. After all, if we lose they end not only their dream but also their HS basketball careers. If we win they attain a goal we began talking about the very first day of practice in November. This was not just any game.

Mr. Elias, cites a casebook rule with regard to the .06 seconds he admitted was left after his whistle for time out, and says the officials concluded they couldn't put less than a second on the clock.

In our previous game versus Ware H.S. at Ware in a very similar situation the officials met and restored .08 seconds (please seek the tape to validate this), with that still fresh in my mind I felt at least a conference or explanation was not an unreasonable expectation on my part, again my seniors worked hard all year for this moment. Mr. Elias says he told me "If you'd like me to explain the rule, coach, I can." And to this I also say he is lying. While running off the court he said to me something like you can't win with less than a second. I chased after the officials for more of an explanation, again feeling my seniors deserved even the .01 seconds if they had it coming. I have seen infractions during the 5 seconds before the ball is inbounded as well as the 5 second call itself. We were behind by 2 points at the time.

I have the radio audio account with the end of the game I will provide which supports my concern with the time clock question.

I also have witnesses available - one who was at my side - as I approached the hallway where the referees had fled and went behind closed doors.

I would sugest that a MIAA official, myself and Mr. Elias take a simple but very reliable lie detector test. I also invite [the tournament assignor] and the Athletic Director of Smith Academy, whom Mr. Elias says heard my "two bit. . ." comment. This is an allegation I take very seriously and plan on getting to the bottom of. These matters along with Mr. Elias' letter are presently in a lawyer's office. If Mr. Elias will agree to the lie detector test it will save time, an appeal process and we will know beyond a reasonable doubt who is lying.

In my seven years as St. Joe coach, we have reached at least the quarter finals of Western Mass all seven years. We have been to the semifinals four times, the finals twice and have won a Western Mass championship, three sectional titles and a state championship. I have been named the County Coach of the Year two times and the Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Association Coach of the year in 2001. During all of these seven years I have received a total of four technical fouls only one of which I feel I earned, and again, I swear I have never called any official a "two bit. . .". I site my record at SJ because I take great pride in what we have accomplished and I take my position as coach and role model very seriously.

In closing, I still feel that four seniors who had worked very hard all year, deserved whatever time they had coming and were robbed not only of the .06 seconds, but an on the spot explanation.

Sincerely,

He signed it and CC'd his AD, his lawyer, and the director of his town's Catholic schools.

I figured I'd shared everything to this point, you might as well know what's happened now.

Re: The saga continues

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
If Mr. Elias will agree to the lie detector test it will save time, an appeal process and we will know beyond a reasonable doubt who is lying.

I wonder if he knows that lie detector test are not admissible in court due to their unreliability and the fact that they can be beat.

Anyway, good luck with that Chuck. I hope you get it all sorted out.

Re: The saga continues

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Just got this in the mail today. It is completely unedited except for removing the name of the tournament assignor.

Quote:

April 9, 2005

MIAA
83 Cedar St.
Milford, MA 01757

Re: St. Joe/Granby D3 Semi-final, March 9, 2005

To MIAA, Mr. Charles Elias and whomever else it may concern,

First off let me apologize for the delay in response to such serious allegations. I was just informed about Mr. Elias' accusations yesterday, Friday, April 8th and given a copy of his letter by my Athletic Director. I am not happy with the delay but I'm also not responsible for it.

Allow me to get to the issues and accusations Mr. Elias cites.

I have been coaching 28 years mostly at the college level, but for the last seven years as varsity coach at St. Joseph. I have never called an official a "two bit f***ing whore".

Unlike many coaches and officials I have interacted with throughout the years, I feel that the game is for the players. Spectators come to see them play not to see me coach or officials do their thing. I feel as a coach I owe it to my players, especially my seniors, to get them every second or fraction of a second they have coming especially in a Western Mass semifinal game. After all, if we lose they end not only their dream but also their HS basketball careers. If we win they attain a goal we began talking about the very first day of practice in November. This was not just any game.

Mr. Elias, cites a casebook rule with regard to the .06 seconds he admitted was left after his whistle for time out, and says the officials concluded they couldn't put less than a second on the clock.

In our previous game versus Ware H.S. at Ware in a very similar situation the officials met and restored .08 seconds (please seek the tape to validate this), with that still fresh in my mind I felt at least a conference or explanation was not an unreasonable expectation on my part, again my seniors worked hard all year for this moment. Mr. Elias says he told me "If you'd like me to explain the rule, coach, I can." And to this I also say he is lying. While running off the court he said to me something like you can't win with less than a second. I chased after the officials for more of an explanation, again feeling my seniors deserved even the .01 seconds if they had it coming. I have seen infractions during the 5 seconds before the ball is inbounded as well as the 5 second call itself. We were behind by 2 points at the time.

I have the radio audio account with the end of the game I will provide which supports my concern with the time clock question.

I also have witnesses available - one who was at my side - as I approached the hallway where the referees had fled and went behind closed doors.

I would sugest that a MIAA official, myself and Mr. Elias take a simple but very reliable lie detector test. I also invite [the tournament assignor] and the Athletic Director of Smith Academy, whom Mr. Elias says heard my "two bit. . ." comment. This is an allegation I take very seriously and plan on getting to the bottom of. These matters along with Mr. Elias' letter are presently in a lawyer's office. If Mr. Elias will agree to the lie detector test it will save time, an appeal process and we will know beyond a reasonable doubt who is lying.

In my seven years as St. Joe coach, we have reached at least the quarter finals of Western Mass all seven years. We have been to the semifinals four times, the finals twice and have won a Western Mass championship, three sectional titles and a state championship. I have been named the County Coach of the Year two times and the Massachusetts Basketball Coaches Association Coach of the year in 2001. During all of these seven years I have received a total of four technical fouls only one of which I feel I earned, and again, I swear I have never called any official a "two bit. . .". I site my record at SJ because I take great pride in what we have accomplished and I take my position as coach and role model very seriously.

In closing, I still feel that four seniors who had worked very hard all year, deserved whatever time they had coming and were robbed not only of the .06 seconds, but an on the spot explanation.

Sincerely,

He signed it and CC'd his AD, his lawyer, and the director of his town's Catholic schools.

I figured I'd shared everything to this point, you might as well know what's happened now.

It sounds like he's thought about it & decided you're not a 2 bit f&cking whore afterall.

That's good to know.

BTW, it's not clear to me what his lawyer will be able to do to help him or hurt you, unless maybe he's about to lose his coaching job over this & he plans on fighting to the death to keep it. If I were you I would send a copy of this to my association & insurance carrier for their records, just in case your name ends up on some civil action.

And then I would forget about it.

So Coach Jekyll/Hyde can craft a well-written denial letter, but he can't control himself in the heat of battle. Perhaps it's his lawyer who writes such excellent letters. If you take Dan's advice and let it ride, I can foresee two possible outcomes.

First, he's shaken and stirred by what has happened and doesn't let it happen again - that's a good outcome. Or second, your complaint becomes the first (or most recent) of many and can be used to help document a pattern of bad behavior - a regrettable but good outcome.

It's too bad he can't just admit his mistakes, apologize, accept the consequences like the man he pretends to be on paper and move on.

You know Chuck, I'm currently retaking that Critical Thinking and Computer Logic class I bailed on a few months back. After re-reading this guy's letter, I think it would make for an interesting in-class discussion. It's a twisty, knotty mess of rhetoric, logical phalacies, disdain, posturing and thinly veiled threats.