JRutlege, whose insights have certainly helped me learn a lot on this board, has said recently in another thread about 'Most Overlooked Calls' , that for a hand check to be a foul "you have to have displacement." The implication seems to be that only displacement shows that advantage has been gained.

I guess my feeling is that serious advantage can be gained by a hand check that does less than displace.... (example: a hand check that changes a players balance....or slows forward progress just a little)

I think this may have been discussed numerous times before...and I apologize if it has....but I just want to know: How should hand checking be called at JV and V boys level? thanks!

The NFHS and most state associations want it called but many officials still don't call it. According to the NFHS, displacement does not have to occur to have a foul.

No, but disadvantage does need to occur. Disadvantage can come in many forms. Basically they amount to didplacement and impediment. If a player is displaced or impeded from doing legal actions, there is a foul. Thus, a hand check is a foul if it disrupts balance or slows (holding is a good call here, too) the offensive player's movements.

carldog,

Let me say this, if you want to be successful or you want to work a high caliber of basketball, you better have some displacement to before you make that call. If you do not, then you can call a foul every time a defender touches a ball handler. I disagree with Tony's assessment of what the NF wants. At least in the literature I have read they make it clear that displacement is apart of that foul call. And as a philosophy I want some displacement to determine whether this is a foul or not. I am used to doing games with a lot of decent ball handlers. I think you should let a play develop before you make that call. I would rather allow an easy lay-up or a shooting foul than a hand check call away from the basket and the ball out of bounds.

Peace

This is from the FED POE in the 2001-02 rulebook concerning handchecking:

<i><b>4-HAND CHECKING, ROUGH PLAY</b>
Hands off:
- Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!
- No displacement of a cutter
- The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL.
- Use of the forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a foul.
- Hand checking is not incidental contact: it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using theur hands.
- This applies to both offensive and defensive players.
- Principles in incidental contact (Rule 4-27) apply."</i>

Note that the POE only mentions displacement of a cutter. Handchecking is still supposed to be a foul on other players- dribblers, post players, etc.- even though dispacement may not be involved. It's a judgement call usually as to whether an illegal advantage is gained with the hand on the opponent. For instance, we tell our guys to call a handcheck if the defender's hand stays on the dribbler for more than 2 steps, even though there might be no actual displacement of the dribbler.

I was watching/observing a regional playoff game this past week. In fact, it was a girls game. One particular official must have a fettish calling hand checks, because he called them all over the floor, whether they had any impact on the play or not.

In my opinion, the game would've been a lot better off had he let just about all of them go. This is not an exaguration either, but, I bet this guy called 75% of the fouls in the game; and it was a 3 person crew. Game never developed any flow because of all the ticky tack fouls he called.

And, yes, I was there, I was watching, I wasn't on the floor officiating. Therefore, I don't consider what I'm doing to be blasting an official when I should've been watching my primary, lol.

Did you happen to leave out the words "in my area of Illinois" at the end of the sentence above, Jeff? It certainly ain't true in my area, with regards to high school ball. The forearm in the back of a post player will get called, even if there is no displacement involved. There usually is a warning involved, but if the defender ignores the warning, he's doing so at his own risk. A defender with his hand on the dribbler for more than 2 steps is also gonna draw a call, even though the dribbler isn't displaced.

The forearm in the back of a post player will get called, even if there is no displacement involved. There usually is a warning involved, but if the defender ignores the warning, he's doing so at his own risk. [/B][/QUOTE]

A simple forearm in the back or an extended forearm in the back?

JR,

The POE does not throw out all the other elements in the rulebook. Like Rule 4-27 as an example. I really do not look back and study POEs that are 4 or 5 years old.

I personally call hand checking all the time when it is appropriate. I know a lot of officials that call hand checking quite often as well. Usually it is called early in the game and when a dribbler is going north and south. I do not call it when players are going east and west for the most part. If you have a defender that is getting beat and puts his hands on the dribbler that is not going to be a foul unless the player is knocked off stride by the contact or cannot get to where they are trying to go. Now if that is not the case in your area, then I will worry about that when I move there. Where I live and all the levels I work, you better not call fouls just for touching. If you do, you will not be working many games. It is called judgment. I know I am consistent with how I call that and many other officials are as well. Especially if you have any desire to work a lot of Class AA Boys basketball.

Peace

How embarassing. :o

This year's POE is just as important as last year's, or 4-5 years ago. Did you read the POE last year?

2003-2004 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS
Handchecking:

1. Any tactic using the hands, arms or body that allows a player, on offense or defense, to "control" (hold, impede, push, divert, slow or prevent) the movement of an opposing player is a foul.
2. When an offensive player uses his or her hands or body to push-off for position, for spacing, for getting open to receive a pass or to move the ball via pass or dribble, it is a foul.
3. "Hooking" by the offensive players should be presumed a definite advantage. This is not a judgment call or tactic worthy of a warning. It is a foul and should be called without hesitation.
4. Any act or tactic of illegal use of hands, arms or body (offense or defense) that intentionally slows, prevents, impedes the progress or displaces an opposing player due to the contact, is a foul and must be called.
5. Regardless of where it takes place on the floor, when a player continuously places a hand on the opposing player, it is a foul.
6. When a player places both hands on an opposing player, it is a foul.
7. When a player jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.

Notice #5? Does it say anything about displacement?

Handchecking is a recurring POE because many officials refuse to call it.

BTW, I work plenty of 4A basketball, state playoff and championship games. Calling handchecking when it occurs has not se me back in the least. As a matter of fact, it's helped me that I call these things that should be called.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 27th, 2005 at 05:52 PM]

That is just great Tony.
 

Tony, I really do not care what it says or does not say. What I am talking about is a philosophy, not a black and white interpretation out of the rulebook. I have told you many times I do not consider myself a rulebook official. This means I am not going to call everything just because the rulebook says it one way or another.

Maybe it is a reoccurring problem where you live, but I do not see it as a problem around here. I see a lot of officials calling it and no matter where it is on the floor. But when it is called, it is called basically following the philosophy which I just stated.

I am happy for your experience and you probably are a very good official. I think you are trying to read into my statements (as usual) instead of actually reading my statements. I did not say you should not call hand checking, I said that you should not call hand checking for simple contact. At least here, that call is not acceptable with high level Class AA boy's basketball. It might be acceptable in the girl's game, but not the boy's game. One of the many reasons I refuse to work girl's games most of the time. I also work playoff games on the boy's side (assigned both classes this year) and I can tell you in the games I had last week I called hand checking in each of my playoff games and my college and regular season HS game. I have not worked a State Final yet and maybe one day I will some day. At this stage of my career I have to wait in line for the many other officials to get their turn and go through the ranks. Having said that, the way I call the game is just in line with what is expected and what other playoff officials are expected to call. If it was I would not be able to work the games I have over the years.

Peace

The POINT OF EMPHASIS is a philosophy.

Everyone here fully realizes that you aren't a rule book official. You're constantly telling us about all the things you ignore.

Say what you want and try to back out of what you said but handchecking DOES NOT always involve disaplcement.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 27th, 2005 at 07:38 PM]

Re: Re: That is just great Tony.
 

I consider that last comment a complement. Thank you for the kind words. ;)

Of course it is a philosophy. The reality is that there are states, evaluators, clinicians and state interpreters that disagree or interpret what is in them differently than you do. Flopping is a POE this year, I have yet to see one official call it this year. Same goes for the running out of bounds. Not only have I not seen that called, but the State Rules Interpreters told everyone how to call it and how not to be so technical in calling it.

Peace

Think I did not see the first one?
 

When you call the game your way, you can call it the way you see fit. There is a reason some officials are respected and others are not. ;)

Peace

Re: Think I did not see the first one?
 

Jeff --

The point is that things are called differently in different areas. Around here, we need to call hand-checking tightly, especially if an assignor or evaluator is watching. In your locale, it appears that things are different. it's important to keep saying this because others who lurk around here don't always have the full understanding of how things are done across the country.

Is anyone actually reading these posts?
 

Who said anything about not calling hand checking? I never said not to call hand checking. I never said I do not call hand checking. I said I do not call it unless there is some displacement. I could add holding, directing and moving to this discussion as well. If a defender simply touches a dribbler you cannot honestly tell me you have a foul. If that is the case your games have to have 50 fouls and no one is able to play because they are sitting on the bench.

Also what I am saying is not very different from what I see on TV on a regular basis. I do not see anyone across the country at the college level calling a simple touch as a hand check. So I do not think we need to talk about what is acceptable in our area and what is not acceptable in other areas. I do not see anything different when watching basketball in California or even the ESPN High School games than what I see in my backyard every game. The only level that is very specific in what is a hand checking call is NCAA Women's basketball. They go into great detail as to what is a foul and talk specifically about if a player is touched and how is a foul. Just because the NF did not use specific words does not mean that people do not have different interpretations of this or any rule.

Peace

Re: Is anyone actually reading these posts?
 

I didn't say you weren't calling hand-checking. And I'm not saying anythning about everyone calling it the way MY assignor wants it called.

You're doing great for where you work, and who you work for. Otherwise you wouldn't be at the level you are. But not everyone works college, or even the kinds of hs games that get on TV.

I'm just saying that how the rule is interpreted is different from place to place and other refs can't necessarily count on their assignors wanting it done the way yours do. It's like 3-seconds. Interps vary, and the best thing for any ref is to do what's expected in their location.

Re: Re: Is anyone actually reading these posts?
 

Well you cannot tailor every discussion to what people do in their own backyard. I personally do not care what others do in other states because I do not work there. That is up to those that officiate in those states or belong to a particular association have to decide what anyone says may not apply to them. I am just saying that there is some displacement in the way many call the game. Whether that applies to your state or not is up to you to figure out.

Remember this post was started based on some comments I made in another post. I was commenting on why something might not have been called or overlooked in response to another poster. I was not talking about where I live or where the person I was responding to lived. I was just stating that maybe because there was not any displacement is the main reason why people are not seeing more hand checking fouls. I was not telling anyone what to do, just stating an opinion.

Peace

I think what JRut is saying is what is done, what is taught (in the majority of camps) and what we see on TV. Of course I haven't been every place so that statement in itself can be disputed. :) Although the verbage is different I would be surprised if Jurassic assigned JRut a game and didn't like the way he called hand-checking. Is this call different from any other contact? I don't think Jurassic, Rainmaker or anyone else is making this an absolute but JRut IMO is applying this using "if" instead of "when."

1. When a defensive player puts a hand on the dribbler a foul should be called.
2. If a defensive player puts a hand on the dribbler and uses the hand to constantly measure up, reroute or impede the dribbler a foul should be called.

I think JRut is saying he follows #2 and others have stated, not in practice but typed words, that they would call more like #1. I think something similar could be applied to various fouls to include rough play and post play which are also POEs.

This is one of the things wrong with officiating at the HS level - the lack of consistancy from official to official. The whole point of having an NFHS is to standardize calls. When NFHS puts out a point of emphasis, it is because officals are not interpreting the call the way the NFHS wants it called.

JRut is correct in looking for advantage/disadvantage if that is what his local association asks for, but the state association should be ensuring that the POE is followed throughout the state, or issue its own POE. It is unfair to have teams playing in a statewide tournament facing a new set of interpretations after following a different philosophy for the rest of the season.

I agree that the hand check is very much about advantage/disadvantage, especially with more athletically gifted players. As long as the dribbler is getting where he's trying to go without the defender impeding his progress, why stop the game for having a hand on the dribbler? The some holds true for the forearm in the back on post players. As long as it's not affecting the action, why put up more fouls that will lead to more free throws?

Um, maybe because the FED wrote rules telling us to, and then issued POE's telling to follow those rules?

The problem is that the advantage/disadvantage part that you're talking about is never uniformly administered. That's obvious from this discussion too. Everybody's got their own idea on how to call it, and as JimGolf said above, the team's sometimes aren't sure of exactly what they can do or not do on defense. That's wrong imo.

Re: Re: Think I did not see the first one?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]In my opinion, you should be calling every game as if an evaluator or assigner was there

For the record Jim, our local associations do not dictate what we call or what we do not call. I am lucky if I even work with people in any association I belong to. I would say about 80% of the time I do not work with people that I do not share an association membership with (I belong to 4 different groups). Local associations are training organizations, not assigning organizations. Our state office holds rules meetings and that is where philosophies are shared and they give interpretations on how to handle things. Not ever POE is a problem in every state. A lot of times they tell us their philosophy and that is what we follow from the start of the season to the playoffs. The state assigns the playoff games, not the local associations. Many times the people they assigned are calling the game the way they want.

Peace