I worked a girls district semifinal lastnight in a new gym that was equipped with remote control scoreboards. Because they work on remote control, the clock is programmed to run time back on the clock. If the timer stops the clock on the whistle, the clock might run for two or more seconds but will re-wind back to what the clock was on when the timer hit the switch. An example would be 18 secs whistle, 17 secs, 16 secs, rewind to 18 secs. There is nothing the timer can do about this. I know this sounds funny but it happens.
In closing seconds of the game last night the black team is down by 2 inside of 10 seconds and trying to get a shot off. Shot goes up, and both teams go for rebound. Ball goes to the floor when the white team picks it up while layin on the baseline. I blow the whistle and the horn goes off. I look at my partner to make sure the clock was okay. He said the clock was inside 1 second when the whistle sounded. We left the floor with the white team winning by two. A knock on our door came from an official there watching the game and said the coaches and tournament director wanted us on the floor that .2secs remained on the clock. I said that horn went off and the game was over. The tournament director came to the door and said that even though the horn sounded because of the way the scoreboard was programmed the clock rewound to .2secs. My partner and I were not sure as to we should go back to the floor. We did go back and finish the game after explaining the situation to both coaches. Luckily the white team coach who was winning (and eventually won)was willing to go along with our decision. After the game my partner and I both agreed that we were wrong in going back out, but were we did not know what to do about the clock situation. I have a couple questions for all of you.
1) Were we wrong in going back out? I know that most of you will say yes, but consider the goofy scoreboard that was involved. I called our state rules interpreter and he said he thought we were wrong but agreed that the board kind of made it an unusual situation.
2) Has anyone ever dealt with one of these types of boards before? Has anyone ever had a similar experience and how did you handle it?
Our rules interpreter is going to get back with me after he does some research on these types of boards. I will keep you posted on what he tells me.

You're correct. Most are going to tell you that you were incorrect to go back on the floor. When you left the visual confines of the gym, the final score was approved and the game was over. You say the winning coach was okay with the decsion. How okay would he have been if he had lost?

No, and I hope that I never do.

[/B][/QUOTE]

As I understand how you describe events, you should never have left the floor. The 1 second delay provision applies to the delay in your blowing the whistle and the timer reacting. If there is under one second remaining and the timer reacts quickly enough to stop the clock, you play out the game with the .2 seconds left. And all clocks stop within microseconds of a timer punching the button, flipping the switch, etc.

As you explain the clock functioning in this gym, the rewind two .2 seconds reflected where the clock was when the timer stopped it. In any other gym the clock would have read .2 seconds as soon as the timer stopped it. After the automatic reset, this clock also read .2 seconds, the time when the timer stopped the clock. Those .2 seconds should be played. Given that you knew the characteristics of the clock, I think you should have remained on the floor until verifying that the clock was not stopped by the timer prior to the horn. I think that once you left, it is probably a different story. But because of this wierd clock, you really left before the game should have ended, or would have ended with the kind of timing rules envisioned by NFHS.

Oh, and you should have returned with a shotgun or other weapon of choice and destroyed that clock so that none of your fellow officials ever deal with anything like that. What a ridiculous design feature.

0.2 seconds????
 

0.2 seconds (under NCAA rules) is not enough time for a shot or tap, you could of used that as a reason not to go back out , and yes you were wrong to go back out.

Agree with Hawks Coach. If you knew the way the clock was operating, you should have huddled with your partner and then gone to the table. This would have given enough time for the clock to reset to .2 seconds and then you would have finished play. The shot gun may not be a good idea in school however a sledge hammer would have been just as effective and even theapeutic. I hope I never see one like this!

Re: 0.2 seconds????
 

First, I thought that .2 was no shot but tap is ok.

Second, if he was wrong to go back out, then he doesn't need an excuse. NCAA rules regarding catch and shoot are not the reason he was wrong to go back out and should not be used as an excuse. The real reason should be provided.

To all of you who say that the officials can't come back, I pose this question.

Heated game, with score A-75,B-74 with seconds left. Whistle blows for OOB violation (off of A), immediately followed by horn, so the crew heads for the locker room.

Timer comes chasing after you saying that there is still 0.5 seconds displayed on the clock, the horn was just for substitutes.

In this situation, is the game over or not?

Re: 0.2 seconds????
 

Say what?

Maybe I needed to add a little bit of clarification. The horn sounded and then the clock rewound itself. We did not know that the clock rewound itself. My partner determined that there was no lag time involved in the play.

I talked to my state rules interpreter who did some research with the state association on these scoreboards. No one has ever heard of these kinds of boards. The only suggestion he had was to clarify with the coaches before the game of what the board is capable of doing. I worked a boys semifinal last night and we notified both coaches of the problem.

Under NFHS rules there is "lag" time. When you sounded your whistle and then the game clock horn sounded, the period had ended, and the game was over. Under NCAA rules there is no "lag" time and these remote control scoreboards seem to be designed for NCAA rules. You should not have left the court immediately but that is a moot point because the game was over no matter what.

Mark,
My understanding of the lag time rule is it allows the timer 1 second to get a clock stopped after a whistle. It protects competent timers from constantly having their work questioned. This clock would keep going after the timer tried to stop it, then automatically recover to where it was when the timer stopped it. That latter condition is what is covered by lag time. A clock that has a delayed stoppage would also be covered if it did not rewind to the exact point that the timer stopped it. For example, a clock that takes .2 seconds to stop would fall under lag time if the elapsed time between whistle and clock stoppage did not exceed the 1 second.

This case is different. It appears that the clock runs for quite a while after stoppage (for some unexplained reason) then recovers to the point of stoppage. That point of stoppage should be played at all times with this type of clock, including end of game.

I also do not agree that this clock is set for NCAA rules. There is no "automatic" clock reset in NCAA. In NCAA you have to check the tape and manually reset to the point that the clock should have stopped. The clock doesn't have independent knowledge of these facts so that it can reset itself, as this clock does.

Blacktiger, I am not meaning to criticize, rather to give an opinion on this with the benefit of hindsight and no pressure to make the right call (and clearly not everyone agrees with my interp!). You made a call that is clearly defensible within the rules in a high pressure situation. You asked the relevant questions based on your knowledge and experience. And the next time, you were even more prepared. Good job.

I have to disagree with most of you. I think the officials are obligated to go finish the game. Lag time only has to do with the response time of the timer. This has nothing to do with lag time.

The original poster referred to lag time, he was referring to his blowing the whistle just before the horn sounded. His partner said there was less than a second on the clock when the whistle blew, so there is no requirement to put time on the clock.

When the horn sounds, the game is over unless the referee has definite knowledge that time should be added to the clock. There is no rule that says if a clock runs on the concept of stupidity, the clock can add time back to itself

When the officials left the visual confines of the arena, the final score was official and the game was over.

Now, what rules are you basing your stand on?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

The original poster referred to lag time, he was referring to his blowing the whistle just before the horn sounded. His partner said there was less than a second on the clock when the whistle blew, so there is no requirement to put time on the clock.

This seems like a stretch to me. It seems more like reverse-lag time than the actual rule. The rule says that if the clock doesn't stop - that's okay. Your interpretation says that if the clock does stop, end the game. Ex:
1.0 seconds - whistle
0.5 seconds - clock stops
Your decision - end game because of lag time?

In another case - late in a tight game, scorer's horn accidentally sounds, officials blow whistle, timer stops clock showing 0:00, and officials leave floor. Timer then comes into locker room saying his display panel shows 0:00.9, and the game horn hasn't sounded. In this situation, it seems like time has expired, but it hasn't.

Lets look at casebook plays from both the NFHS and NCAA for this play.

NFHS Play 5.10.1B, Comment: "Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to make allowance for normal reaction time of the time which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction' time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock." The last sentence that I have quoted refers to the casebook play itself. In this play the official sees the amount of time on the clock as he/she sounds his/her whistle and and signals the clock to stop. The clock showed three seconds when the official's whistle sounded and the timer did not stop the clock and the period expired. The Ruling has the referee directing the Timer to put three seconds on the clock because he had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

NFHS Play 5.10.1D, specifically Situations (a) and (b) further reinforces the Comment in the previous play. In this play the official see how much time is in on the clock when he/she signaled the clock to be stopped. In Situation (a) the clock after stopping showed the same amount of time that the official saw when he/she signaled the clock to be stopped, and in Situation (b) the clock showed one second less then when the official signaled the clock to be stopped. In (a) and (b) the time on the clock is considered correct and there was no timing error. In Situations (c) and (d) the clock showed more two or more seconds elapsing after the official's signal to stop the clock. Situations (c) and (d) are timing errors and the referee will direct the timer to reset the clock to the time showing at the time on the clock when the stop clock signal was given.

Therefore, under the NFHS Rules the game at the beginning of the thread ended with the sounding of the timer's signal signalling the expiration of playing time. Just because technology enabled the clock to rewind itself has no bearing on whether time is to be put back on the clock.

NCAA R-5S-12-A10, A.R. 25: This play is is exactly like the NFHS play with the only difference being that Situations (b) is also considered a timing error and is treated the same way as Situations (c) and (d).

If this game had been played under NCAA rules the game would not be over. The Team B would get a thrown in with 0.2 seconds on the clock. Team B can only score a field goal on a tip.

Mark, I appreciate your helping make my case with references. The lag time in the NFHS rules clearly refers to that time accounted for by the timers failure to react immediately to a whistle. As i stated above, it is a protection (and a wise one I might add) for the timer.

The lag time in this case as originally stated was some undetermined amount of time plus at least the .2 seconds that the clock automatically adjusted back. The .2 seconds on the clock represented the time that the timer stopped the clock and included any reaction time on behalf of the timer. The remaining loss of time that resulted in the horn was the inability of the timing equipment to immediately stop. This is not envisioned or addressed in NF rules. Complicating matters, somehow the clock continues to run, but can also adjust back to where it was when the timer stopped the clock. That is how much time should have been on the clock, under NFHS or NCAA rules.

Bktballref, you asked for references. I personally believe that Mark has provided them, yet drawn the wrong conclusions as have you. But given that there are no cases addressing these wierd circumstances, we probably have to agree to disagree. Either of our positions can be supported reasonably. I really like seeing that so many individuals are on top of the rules and cases to inform this discussion. I would love to have you guys for any end-of-game situation, because you would make good, reasoned calls.

Your example is not what happened though, is it? The whistle sounded with less than a second remaining, and the clcok didn't stop. Therefore if the clock doesn't stop, the game is over. Forget about the dopey clock that backs itself up for a moment. Such a clock is not identified as legal in the NFHS rule book.

In the original play, the official blew his whistle when a player was OOB. Immediately after he blew his whistle, the horn sounded. The off ball official ruled that the clock had less than one second on it when the whistle was blown. Therefore, the officials were not required to place anymore time back on the clock. The game is over. It's no different than any other game ending situation.

The fact that the school had some type of wacky timing device that puts time back on the clock, doesn't mean anything. Only the referee can put time back on the clock. When the horn sounded and the officials ruled there was no time left, the game was over.

How can you possibly make that assumption? And even if you can, as you said, "This is not envisioned or addressed in NF rules." Only the referee can make a determination that time must be put back on the clock, not the timer, or a game administrator.

Based on what coach? The NF Rules make no allowance for such a clock. Therefore, when the horn sounded and the officials rules that no time was left, this game was over. There is absolutely nothing in the rulebook that supports your argument that the .2 seconds should have been put back on the clock.



Thank you for the compliment but I guess we do disagree. I don't see how one could reasonably argue that time should be put back on the clock. The horn sounded, and the officials ruled that the clock was under 1 second when the whistle blew. Only the referee can have time put back on the clock. The decision here not to is clearly justified.

At least this discussion has kept the first week of the off season lively! :)

Ripian, (Ian)

I know that in Alberta your provincial association had just gone to NCAA rules, and that you might not fully understand all the new rule interpretations.

In fact, the NCAA or the CIAU (don't everyone ask) does allow a tap with under .3 left however, the catch and shoot wouldn't be allowed.


Hey everyone be nice...it was their first post.

keep smiling
SH

I think that's the whole issue, here, Tony. What is the "clock"? Is it the time showing on the scoreboard, or is it the time showing on the timer's console?

I havent' seen one of these "remote control" clocks, (and I hope I never do), but it seems to me like the timer stopped the console with .2 left, but the scoreboard kept going for a while.

It's really no different from the officials blowing the whistle with 2 seconds left, the timer not stopping the clock, the horn sounding, the officials leaving, ... Here, they'd be brought back out to finish the last second.

I think they should do the same (well, with .2 seconds) in the case presented.

Of course, it could have been prevented if (a) they hadn't been in such a hurry to leave -- especially given the screwy clock arrangement and (b) the socroer / time had stood / shouted / ran on the court to get there attention.

If we read the orginal post we see that the clock was stopped in a timely manner. Therefore, under NFHS rules the period ended when the clock's horn sounded. From the information given in the original post I really can't say if the officials left the court too soon. But this is a good example for the need for good pregame conferences as well as short meetings during time outs late in the game. From the original post it appears that the officials did meet immediately after the horn sounded and made the correct decision that the game was over.

By rule the game was over and the officials were incorrect to go back on the court and put 0.2 seconds back on the clock. Hypothetically, if the officials were not sure what to do at the time the horn sounded, they would have been well within their jurisdiction to adjourn to their dressing room (this would not be considered leaving the visual confines of the court) to check the rule book and casebook and then returned to the court and announce their ruling.

No one is putting time back on the clock. Putting time back would be if there was something like the Precision Timing device sitting next to the clock which had the ability to reset the game clock if need be.

In this case, the clock is stopped with 0.2 seconds remaining in the game. However, due to the limitations of the display, it appears that time has run out. In regards to Bob Jenkins' question, I believe that the official time is what is displayed on the console at the table - not what is shown on the boards.

Bottom line - the officials knew that 2 seconds "ran off the clock" and should have waited at least 3 before leaving.

i agree with Mark. You guys keep saying the officials are putting time on the clock. This is not what happened. I guess we can refer back to the rule, anything not covered in the rule book then the officials can make the judgement themselves. If another official works the game, they can end it if they want to. I do think this needs to be addressed in the league before the next game. Let the league rule on this one.

2-3 does sound like the best rule on this. I'm shocked that any respectable clock manufacturer would make something like this. (Think of a TV remote - doesn't take 2 seconds to change the channel)

The clock on the wall indicated 0:00. But the console backs up and puts time on the clock. If that's true, then, yes, time has been put back on the clock. Precision Time doesn't reset the game clock. It simply stops the clock when the whistle is blown.

Quote:

In this case, the clock is stopped with 0.2 seconds remaining in the game.

No, it didn't. The horn sounded and the clock was on 0:00. What is on the console at the table doesn't mean "didley". Most schools don't even have a display at the table. The clock that's mounted on the wall is the official time piece.

1-15
A visible game clock and scoreboard are mandatory.

Based on what? There is nothing in the rule book that backs up your stand that the "console" is the official time piece. There's nothing in the origianl post that says there was .2 on the console.

Where did this "2 seconds ran off the clock and they should have waited 3" stuff come from? In the original post, the whistle blew with less than one second remaining and the horn sounded. You're adding things to this sitch that have no basis.

But there's nothing here to support any of that, Bob. I haven't read anything in the rule book that tells me that the console at the table is the official clock. There's also nothing in the orignal post that says the clock was stopped improperly. All we have here is some funky device that backs up and adds time to the clcok every time it stops.

If the horn sounded and the officials ruled the clock stopped properly, this game is over. once they're in the locker room, it's too late to come back out and resume the game. Imagine the sh*t that would have hit the fan if the losing time had hit a baskt and won.

Fun thread, but I'm outta words! :)

Assuming that the officials had stayed on the court and then reset the game clock to show 0.2 seconds on the game clock. NFHS rules do not allow for the play described in the original posting. The two NFHS Casebook plays that I have previously do not allow for time being put back on the clock. The timer responded correctly and the game is over.
And once the officials leave the visual confines of the court the game really is over.

By Precision Timing, I meant a variation of the system that was not hooked up to the main clock, but where the timer could look and see (on an independent clock) when the whistle was blown. Bad example on my part.

Two problems with this. First, every clock that I have seen has a display at the operator's console which shows the time. Second, what rule reference automatically makes the wall clock the official one? 2-4-2 gives the ref the authority to chose whatever clock he wants.

The 2 seconds came directly from the original post:
The officials knew throughout the game that this problem occured. At the end, they should have waited 2 seconds to see if the clock had actually stopped. (I put 3 to have a bit of leeway.

After rereading my post for accuracy and reading some of the other posts, I think I need to clarify the situation better. We did NOT know that the clock reset itself. I explained the clock mechanism before simply to set up the situation. Another post questioned as to why we were in such a hurry to get off the floor or why we didn't check with the timer. In this situation we conferred and my partner who was the R in this game looked to the table and they gave him an okay sign as to say nothing was wrong. Other posts claim that we put time back on the clock. At no point and time did we put time on the clock. The .2 seconds on the clock was what was on the clock when the timer turned off the clock on my whistle for OOB. I just thought I would give some more information about the situation.

Simple solution
 

Shoot the timer.

The fact that he could go through an entire game without realizing this clock error makes him seem like a rather incompetent timer.

Thanks for clearing things up, though.

And the lessons learned?
 

First and foremost, I think I just added something to my pre-game routine. I hope, in the future, to always ask game management if there are any nuances about the clock I should know. (I bet, in this case, the game management knew the clock did this.)

My opinion is that the official time was 0.2 seconds, even though there was some erroneous horn (due to operator slip, bad wiring, questionable design, or whatever). If everyone knew in advance that the display on the wall flashes through odd (but ordinary looking) sequences when stopping, then I bet everyone would have patiently watched to see the final display. The Timer acted in a reasonable fashion to stop the clock, and after its peculiar behavior, it ended up showing the 0.2 seconds.

Ever ref a game where the time is kept by someone with a watch at the table who occassionally yells out the time and provides a countdown for the last 10 seconds? Nothing visible to all about that....

Ever ref a game by yourself? How do you accurately call the far sideline? I tell the coaches I'll do my best but if they agree to facts contrary to my call then we'll change it. We want to get it right! (I work away from the bench, giving me a different view on purpose.)

Would the "get it right" principle apply here?

I don't fault the crew for leaving, nor for returning. I think their return was in an effort to "get it right" and that, IMHO, is putting the players first and making our egos far less important. (The clock-at-zero, substitution horn, 0.9 seconds remaining was a good post. Leaving the floor can be a mistake -- it could happen.) Again I think the best idea is to learn -- lets adjust our pregames!

Can I ask a stupid question? You went through a whole game a did not know the clock did that?

Believe it or not, yes. According to the AD, it does not do it every time. Sometimes it stops when the timer hits the button and sometimes it rewinds. I guess we never noticed it doing what it does.