Remote Control Scoreboards?

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Lets look at casebook plays from both the NFHS and NCAA for this play.

NFHS Play 5.10.1B, Comment: "The rules do not permit the referee to make allowance for normal reaction time of the time which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction' time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock."

Mark, I appreciate your helping make my case with references. The lag time in the NFHS rules clearly refers to that time accounted for by the timers failure to react immediately to a whistle. As i stated above, it is a protection (and a wise one I might add) for the timer.

The lag time in this case as originally stated was some undetermined amount of time plus at least the .2 seconds that the clock automatically adjusted back. The .2 seconds on the clock represented the time that the timer stopped the clock and included any reaction time on behalf of the timer. The remaining loss of time that resulted in the horn was the inability of the timing equipment to immediately stop. This is not envisioned or addressed in NF rules. Complicating matters, somehow the clock continues to run, but can also adjust back to where it was when the timer stopped the clock. That is how much time should have been on the clock, under NFHS or NCAA rules.

Bktballref, you asked for references. I personally believe that Mark has provided them, yet drawn the wrong conclusions as have you. But given that there are no cases addressing these wierd circumstances, we probably have to agree to disagree. Either of our positions can be supported reasonably. I really like seeing that so many individuals are on top of the rules and cases to inform this discussion. I would love to have you guys for any end-of-game situation, because you would make good, reasoned calls.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

This seems like a stretch to me. It seems more like reverse-lag time than the actual rule. The rule says that if the clock doesn't stop - that's okay. Your interpretation says that if the clock does stop, end the game. Ex:
1.0 seconds - whistle
0.5 seconds - clock stops
Your decision - end game because of lag time?

Your example is not what happened though, is it? The whistle sounded with less than a second remaining, and the clcok didn't stop. Therefore if the clock doesn't stop, the game is over. Forget about the dopey clock that backs itself up for a moment. Such a clock is not identified as legal in the NFHS rule book.

In the original play, the official blew his whistle when a player was OOB. Immediately after he blew his whistle, the horn sounded. The off ball official ruled that the clock had less than one second on it when the whistle was blown. Therefore, the officials were not required to place anymore time back on the clock. The game is over. It's no different than any other game ending situation.

The fact that the school had some type of wacky timing device that puts time back on the clock, doesn't mean anything. Only the referee can put time back on the clock. When the horn sounded and the officials ruled there was no time left, the game was over.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

The lag time in this case as originally stated was some undetermined amount of time plus at least the .2 seconds that the clock automatically adjusted back. The .2 seconds on the clock represented the time that the timer stopped the clock and included any reaction time on behalf of the timer. The remaining loss of time that resulted in the horn was the inability of the timing equipment to immediately stop.

How can you possibly make that assumption? And even if you can, as you said, "This is not envisioned or addressed in NF rules." Only the referee can make a determination that time must be put back on the clock, not the timer, or a game administrator.

This is not envisioned or addressed in NF rules. Complicating matters, somehow the clock continues to run, but can also adjust back to where it was when the timer stopped the clock. That is how much time should have been on the clock, under NFHS or NCAA rules.

Based on what coach? The NF Rules make no allowance for such a clock. Therefore, when the horn sounded and the officials rules that no time was left, this game was over. There is absolutely nothing in the rulebook that supports your argument that the .2 seconds should have been put back on the clock.

Bktballref, you asked for references. I personally believe that Mark has provided them, yet drawn the wrong conclusions as have you. But given that there are no cases addressing these wierd circumstances, we probably have to agree to disagree. Either of our positions can be supported reasonably. I really like seeing that so many individuals are on top of the rules and cases to inform this discussion. I would love to have you guys for any end-of-game situation, because you would make good, reasoned calls.

Thank you for the compliment but I guess we do disagree. I don't see how one could reasonably argue that time should be put back on the clock. The horn sounded, and the officials ruled that the clock was under 1 second when the whistle blew. Only the referee can have time put back on the clock. The decision here not to is clearly justified.

At least this discussion has kept the first week of the off season lively!

[hoopsrefBC]

Ripian, (Ian)

I know that in Alberta your provincial association had just gone to NCAA rules, and that you might not fully understand all the new rule interpretations.

In fact, the NCAA or the CIAU (don't everyone ask) does allow a tap with under .3 left however, the catch and shoot wouldn't be allowed.


Hey everyone be nice...it was their first post.

keep smiling
SH

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Your example is not what happened though, is it? The whistle sounded with less than a second remaining, and the clcok didn't stop.

I think that's the whole issue, here, Tony. What is the "clock"? Is it the time showing on the scoreboard, or is it the time showing on the timer's console?

I havent' seen one of these "remote control" clocks, (and I hope I never do), but it seems to me like the timer stopped the console with .2 left, but the scoreboard kept going for a while.

It's really no different from the officials blowing the whistle with 2 seconds left, the timer not stopping the clock, the horn sounding, the officials leaving, ... Here, they'd be brought back out to finish the last second.

I think they should do the same (well, with .2 seconds) in the case presented.

Of course, it could have been prevented if (a) they hadn't been in such a hurry to leave -- especially given the screwy clock arrangement and (b) the socroer / time had stood / shouted / ran on the court to get there attention.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

If we read the orginal post we see that the clock was stopped in a timely manner. Therefore, under NFHS rules the period ended when the clock's horn sounded. From the information given in the original post I really can't say if the officials left the court too soon. But this is a good example for the need for good pregame conferences as well as short meetings during time outs late in the game. From the original post it appears that the officials did meet immediately after the horn sounded and made the correct decision that the game was over.

By rule the game was over and the officials were incorrect to go back on the court and put 0.2 seconds back on the clock. Hypothetically, if the officials were not sure what to do at the time the horn sounded, they would have been well within their jurisdiction to adjourn to their dressing room (this would not be considered leaving the visual confines of the court) to check the rule book and casebook and then returned to the court and announce their ruling.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The fact that the school had some type of wacky timing device that puts time back on the clock, doesn't mean anything. Only the referee can put time back on the clock. When the horn sounded and the officials ruled there was no time left, the game was over.

No one is putting time back on the clock. Putting time back would be if there was something like the Precision Timing device sitting next to the clock which had the ability to reset the game clock if need be.

In this case, the clock is stopped with 0.2 seconds remaining in the game. However, due to the limitations of the display, it appears that time has run out. In regards to Bob Jenkins' question, I believe that the official time is what is displayed on the console at the table - not what is shown on the boards.

Bottom line - the officials knew that 2 seconds "ran off the clock" and should have waited at least 3 before leaving.

[Bart Tyson]

i agree with Mark. You guys keep saying the officials are putting time on the clock. This is not what happened. I guess we can refer back to the rule, anything not covered in the rule book then the officials can make the judgement themselves. If another official works the game, they can end it if they want to. I do think this needs to be addressed in the league before the next game. Let the league rule on this one.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
i agree with Mark. You guys keep saying the officials are putting time on the clock. This is not what happened. I guess we can refer back to the rule, anything not covered in the rule book then the officials can make the judgement themselves. If another official works the game, they can end it if they want to. I do think this needs to be addressed in the league before the next game. Let the league rule on this one.

2-3 does sound like the best rule on this. I'm shocked that any respectable clock manufacturer would make something like this. (Think of a TV remote - doesn't take 2 seconds to change the channel)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
No one is putting time back on the clock. Putting time back would be if there was something like the Precision Timing device sitting next to the clock which had the ability to reset the game clock if need be.

The clock on the wall indicated 0:00. But the console backs up and puts time on the clock. If that's true, then, yes, time has been put back on the clock. Precision Time doesn't reset the game clock. It simply stops the clock when the whistle is blown.

In this case, the clock is stopped with 0.2 seconds remaining in the game.

No, it didn't. The horn sounded and the clock was on 0:00. What is on the console at the table doesn't mean "didley". Most schools don't even have a display at the table. The clock that's mounted on the wall is the official time piece.

1-15
A visible game clock and scoreboard are mandatory.

However, due to the limitations of the display, it appears that time has run out. In regards to Bob Jenkins' question, I believe that the official time is what is displayed on the console at the table - not what is shown on the boards.

Based on what? There is nothing in the rule book that backs up your stand that the "console" is the official time piece. There's nothing in the origianl post that says there was .2 on the console.

Bottom line - the officials knew that 2 seconds "ran off the clock" and should have waited at least 3 before leaving.

Where did this "2 seconds ran off the clock and they should have waited 3" stuff come from? In the original post, the whistle blew with less than one second remaining and the horn sounded. You're adding things to this sitch that have no basis.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I think that's the whole issue, here, Tony. What is the "clock"? Is it the time showing on the scoreboard, or is it the time showing on the timer's console?

I havent' seen one of these "remote control" clocks, (and I hope I never do), but it seems to me like the timer stopped the console with .2 left, but the scoreboard kept going for a while.

But there's nothing here to support any of that, Bob. I haven't read anything in the rule book that tells me that the console at the table is the official clock. There's also nothing in the orignal post that says the clock was stopped improperly. All we have here is some funky device that backs up and adds time to the clcok every time it stops.

If the horn sounded and the officials ruled the clock stopped properly, this game is over. once they're in the locker room, it's too late to come back out and resume the game. Imagine the sh*t that would have hit the fan if the losing time had hit a baskt and won.

Fun thread, but I'm outta words!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Assuming that the officials had stayed on the court and then reset the game clock to show 0.2 seconds on the game clock. NFHS rules do not allow for the play described in the original posting. The two NFHS Casebook plays that I have previously do not allow for time being put back on the clock. The timer responded correctly and the game is over.
And once the officials leave the visual confines of the court the game really is over.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The clock on the wall indicated 0:00. But the console backs up and puts time on the clock. If that's true, then, yes, time has been put back on the clock. Precision Time doesn't reset the game clock. It simply stops the clock when the whistle is blown.

By Precision Timing, I meant a variation of the system that was not hooked up to the main clock, but where the timer could look and see (on an independent clock) when the whistle was blown. Bad example on my part.

No, it didn't. The horn sounded and the clock was on 0:00. What is on the console at the table doesn't mean "didley". Most schools don't even have a display at the table. The clock that's mounted on the wall is the official time piece.

Two problems with this. First, every clock that I have seen has a display at the operator's console which shows the time. Second, what rule reference automatically makes the wall clock the official one? 2-4-2 gives the ref the authority to chose whatever clock he wants.

Where did this "2 seconds ran off the clock and they should have waited 3" stuff come from? In the original post, the whistle blew with less than one second remaining and the horn sounded. You're adding things to this sitch that have no basis.

The 2 seconds came directly from the original post:

If the timer stops the clock on the whistle, the clock might run for two or more seconds but will re-wind back to what the clock was on when the timer hit the switch.

The officials knew throughout the game that this problem occured. At the end, they should have waited 2 seconds to see if the clock had actually stopped. (I put 3 to have a bit of leeway.

[blacktiger]

After rereading my post for accuracy and reading some of the other posts, I think I need to clarify the situation better. We did NOT know that the clock reset itself. I explained the clock mechanism before simply to set up the situation. Another post questioned as to why we were in such a hurry to get off the floor or why we didn't check with the timer. In this situation we conferred and my partner who was the R in this game looked to the table and they gave him an okay sign as to say nothing was wrong. Other posts claim that we put time back on the clock. At no point and time did we put time on the clock. The .2 seconds on the clock was what was on the clock when the timer turned off the clock on my whistle for OOB. I just thought I would give some more information about the situation.

[Mark Dexter]

Shoot the timer.

The fact that he could go through an entire game without realizing this clock error makes him seem like a rather incompetent timer.

Thanks for clearing things up, though.

[Richard Ogg]

First and foremost, I think I just added something to my pre-game routine. I hope, in the future, to always ask game management if there are any nuances about the clock I should know. (I bet, in this case, the game management knew the clock did this.)

My opinion is that the official time was 0.2 seconds, even though there was some erroneous horn (due to operator slip, bad wiring, questionable design, or whatever). If everyone knew in advance that the display on the wall flashes through odd (but ordinary looking) sequences when stopping, then I bet everyone would have patiently watched to see the final display. The Timer acted in a reasonable fashion to stop the clock, and after its peculiar behavior, it ended up showing the 0.2 seconds.

Ever ref a game where the time is kept by someone with a watch at the table who occassionally yells out the time and provides a countdown for the last 10 seconds? Nothing visible to all about that....

Ever ref a game by yourself? How do you accurately call the far sideline? I tell the coaches I'll do my best but if they agree to facts contrary to my call then we'll change it. We want to get it right! (I work away from the bench, giving me a different view on purpose.)

Would the "get it right" principle apply here?

I don't fault the crew for leaving, nor for returning. I think their return was in an effort to "get it right" and that, IMHO, is putting the players first and making our egos far less important. (The clock-at-zero, substitution horn, 0.9 seconds remaining was a good post. Leaving the floor can be a mistake -- it could happen.) Again I think the best idea is to learn -- lets adjust our pregames!