T at end of the quarter- who gets ball?

buckrog64 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 10:27am

I observed this in a game last night. A shooting foul is called as the horn goes off ending the third quarter. A technical foul is also called on the same team. The quarter ends with four foul shots, all by the same team. The fourth quarter then begins with the officials using the AP arrow. I would have thought that the team shooting the technical fouls would have retained possession at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Appreciate comments.

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 10:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
I observed this in a game last night. A shooting foul is called as the horn goes off ending the third quarter. A technical foul is also called on the same team. The quarter ends with four foul shots, all by the same team. The fourth quarter then begins with the officials using the AP arrow. I would have thought that the team shooting the technical fouls would have retained possession at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Appreciate comments.

The technical foul was part of the third quarter. The throw-in penalty part of that "T" does not carry over into the fourth quarter. AP to start the 4th quarter was the correct call.

If the "T" was assessed after the third quarter ended, then the fourth quarter would begin with a throw-in for that "T", not an AP.

LarryS · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 11:12am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
I observed this in a game last night. A shooting foul is called as the horn goes off ending the third quarter. A technical foul is also called on the same team. The quarter ends with four foul shots, all by the same team. The fourth quarter then begins with the officials using the AP arrow. I would have thought that the team shooting the technical fouls would have retained possession at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Appreciate comments.

The technical foul was part of the third quarter. The throw-in penalty part of that "T" does not carry over into the fourth quarter. AP to start the 4th quarter was the correct call.

If the "T" was assessed after the third quarter ended, then the fourth quarter would begin with a throw-in for that "T", not an AP.

If the shooting foul occurs "as the horn goes off" and then a technical foul is called, seems to me the T was assessed after the third quarter ended unless the quarter did not officially end until after the free throws for the shooting foul.

I don't have my book with me...so I could very well be wrong.

Adam · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 11:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryS

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
I observed this in a game last night. A shooting foul is called as the horn goes off ending the third quarter. A technical foul is also called on the same team. The quarter ends with four foul shots, all by the same team. The fourth quarter then begins with the officials using the AP arrow. I would have thought that the team shooting the technical fouls would have retained possession at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Appreciate comments.

The technical foul was part of the third quarter. The throw-in penalty part of that "T" does not carry over into the fourth quarter. AP to start the 4th quarter was the correct call.

If the "T" was assessed after the third quarter ended, then the fourth quarter would begin with a throw-in for that "T", not an AP.

If the shooting foul occurs "as the horn goes off" and then a technical foul is called, seems to me the T was assessed after the third quarter ended unless the quarter did not officially end until after the free throws for the shooting foul.

I don't have my book with me...so I could very well be wrong.

I believe the next quarter doesn't start until the intermission period has begun. In either case, if the T was called prior to the last free throw ending, it's definitely part of the third quarter.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 11:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryS

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
I observed this in a game last night. A shooting foul is called as the horn goes off ending the third quarter. A technical foul is also called on the same team. The quarter ends with four foul shots, all by the same team. The fourth quarter then begins with the officials using the AP arrow. I would have thought that the team shooting the technical fouls would have retained possession at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Appreciate comments.

The technical foul was part of the third quarter. The throw-in penalty part of that "T" does not carry over into the fourth quarter. AP to start the 4th quarter was the correct call.

If the "T" was assessed after the third quarter ended, then the fourth quarter would begin with a throw-in for that "T", not an AP.

If the shooting foul occurs "as the horn goes off" and then a technical foul is called, seems to me the T was assessed after the third quarter ended unless the quarter did not officially end until after the free throws for the shooting foul.

I don't have my book with me...so I could very well be wrong.

As Snaqs said, you're wrong. When you get your books, the rules references are rule 5-6-3(b) and casebook play 5.6 COMMENT A.

buckrog64 · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 11:53am

As I read 5:6, and as I observed the game, the common foul free throws should have been a part of the third quarter. The horn had sounded ending the quarter during the try. So then the fourth quarter should have begun with two foul shots for the T, plus possession of the ball because of the T, and not because of the AP Arrow. Right?

Camron Rust · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
As I read 5:6, and as I observed the game, the common foul free throws should have been a part of the third quarter. The horn had sounded ending the quarter during the try. So then the fourth quarter should have begun with two foul shots for the T, plus possession of the ball because of the T, and not because of the AP Arrow. Right?

No, The 3rdQ doesn't end until all activity related to it ends....in other words, until the FTs are shot for the shooting foul, the 3rdQ continues. If the T occured before the last FT ended for the shooting foul, the T is part of the 3rd.

LarryS · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 12:42pm

You know...it appears that I was wrong

Hope I didn't cause any confusion.

tjones1 · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryS
You know...it appears that I was wrong

Hope I didn't cause any confusion.

You'd be correct if the foul wasn't shooting or didn't include any shots (i.e. non-shooting foul, no bonus or double bonus).

buckrog64 · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 03:29pm

Case book on 5:6 Comment B says, "If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the quarter,(which is what happened) the next quarter is started by administering free throws." That to me makes it sound like common foul shots in the 3rd quarter, as it happened in the game, and T free throws beginning in the fourth quarter.

Lotto · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
Case book on 5:6 Comment B says, "If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the quarter,(which is what happened) the next quarter is started by administering free throws." That to me makes it sound like common foul shots in the 3rd quarter, as it happened in the game, and T free throws beginning in the fourth quarter.

The third quarter doesn't end until after the FTs from the foul are shot. The ball becomes dead when the try at the horn is complete, but because of the foul, the ball does not become dead TO END THE QUARTER until after all the FTs are shot. Of course, once the T occurs, then the ball does not become dead to end the quarter until the last of the four FTs is attempted.

tmp44 · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 03:36pm

Buck,

If free throws are being shot, then the quarter hasn't ended yet. Think about it this way: A1 throws up a desperation 45 footer to end the 3rd qtr. While airborne, she is crushed by B1, resulting in a 3-shot foul. As the ball is halfway to the basket, the horn sounds. You shoot the freethrows before the quarter is considered ended because the foul happened while stll in a live-ball situation in the quarter. Further that...when would you start the minute intermission period in between the 3rd and 4th quarter? While A1 is shooting the FTs? No, but rather once she is completed with them, because the 3rd quarter is still the active quarter. If a technical foul would occur before those FTs are finished, they are considered part of the 3rd Qtr.

The key in your case is that after the ball has become dead to end the quarter. Recall that FTs are live ball situations, thus the ball has not yet become dead to end the quarter.

tmp44 · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Lotto

Quote:

Originally posted by buckrog64
Case book on 5:6 Comment B says, "If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end the quarter,(which is what happened) the next quarter is started by administering free throws." That to me makes it sound like common foul shots in the 3rd quarter, as it happened in the game, and T free throws beginning in the fourth quarter.

The third quarter doesn't end until after the FTs from the foul are shot. The ball becomes dead when the try at the horn is complete, but because of the foul, the ball does not become dead TO END THE QUARTER until after all the FTs are shot. Of course, once the T occurs, then the ball does not become dead to end the quarter until the last of the four FTs is attempted.

Well said Lotto...you beat me to it!

buckrog64 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 23, 2005, 03:51pm

I appreciate all the input going on here. I understand that the foul shots are part of the 3rd quarter and so forth. For clarification, I think 5:6.3b sums it up best, in that the quarter ends when the free throws and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next. Case in point, shoot the free throws for the T, and then start 4th qtr. with arrow. Thanks again.