A1 with ball well outside of 3-point arc. Throws a pass toward A2 in the post(on the block), B2 makes great defensive play and gets around A1 without fouling and deflects the pass. Pass goes in the basket. How many points is team A credited with?

Brought up in association meeting last night thought I'd get the boards response to it.

2 pts, because B2 touched the ball and he was standing in 2pt area.

Mostly right. Because B2 touched the ball a ball that wasn't a try from inside the arc.
Your wording is incomplete because of this scenario:
A1 outside arc. B1 guarding him, standing inside arc (or on it).
B1 partially blocks A1's 3-pt attempt. It still goes in. Three points.

Very correct snaq, I should have worded my response better.

From what we read in the Rule book last night that is incorrect. It should be 3pts. I don't have the exact rule cite but I believe that in the scoring section is where this looks like it should be 3pts.

The rule says if a tap, tip, try or "thrown" ball from behind the arc goes in the basket without being touched by a teammate, referee, etc..( I forget the actually wording but it doesn't include the defender) team A should be credited with 3pts.

This, I believe was the rule change a couple of years ago that deals with an alley-oop pass entering the basket withour being touched.

I would have agreed with you that it should be 2pts and 2pts will be the easiest to sell to both coaches but reading the rule it sounds like it should be 3pts.

4-40-4...a try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful,when the thrown ball touches the floor,or the ball becomes dead.

The try for a three could be judged ended when it was below the level of the rim, for example. However a live ball did go into the basket.

2 points.

ugh
 

Boy, with the wording of that scoring rule saying "or THROWN ball that does not touch the floor, a teammate or official......." i hope it never happens on my watch with a coach who is a bookworm. Especially after reviewing 04-05 casebook 5.2.1 Situation C (b) which states "A1 THROWS the ball from behind the three point line. The ball is leglly touched by: (b)B1 who is in the 2 point area"

Sorry, but if we are using the rulebook, it is a 3.

Next.

Re: ugh
 

Right. The position of the defense doesn't matter -- only the position of the offensive player who last touches the ball.

The NCAA interp is a little different (if the thrown ball has any chance of going in the basket, 3 points. If it doesnt -- ball thrown in a direction well away from basket, ball below basket and heading down, etc -- score 2 points).

If you, as the referee, judge it was a "try" and the "try" had not ended, score a 3, however, the thread said it was a pass, and if it went below the level of the rim, the "try" has ended, since the "try" was certainly unsuccessful. Therefore, it cannot still be a "try" for a 3. But the ball went in, so score 2.

In high school, it doesn't to be a "try" for it to be a three. This way, when a pass accidentally goes in, it could be a three. Before, it had to be a two unless the ref thought it was a purposeful attempt.

Frank, the problem is that the language in 5-2-1 (FED) makes it irrelevant whether the ball is a try or not. It says "a successful try, tap or thrown ball" that doesn't touch a teammate, ref or the floor is 3 points if it starts from behind the arc. The thrown ball doesn't have to be a try.

In fact the whole point of introducing the wording was so that an "alley-oops" pass that went in would count for 3.

Correct, Snaq, but once it is clear, the ball is not going in the basket, the "try" is over. So the try for the 3 has ended. It just turns into a live ball going into a basket. Look at 4.40.4 (b).

Ok, where do I send my request for an adjustment to the language used in the rulebook.

Better yet, let them just define "try" and "thrown ball" more clearly.

Whatcha think?

Otherwise, with my luck, in my very first game a kid launches the ball with all his might from half court at the buzzer, the ball's apex reaches a height level to the rim but the ball falls short hits and opponent in the back of the head as he is celebrating the 1 point overtime win and deflects up into the basket, I remember this thread and count it, right?

Golly!

4-40-4 (b)
 

Ah, excellent, problem solved, it is a 2, thank goodness for 4-40-4 (b). Great call!

Back under my rock!

The judgement was taken away for Federation ball a couple of years ago when they made the change dealing with the Ally-oop play. There is no judgement anymore.

I and most of the officials in my association thought that this wasn't exactly fair but the wording of the rule is that it should be a 3. Regardless of whether the thrown pass was judged to be a try or not.

Edited: 4-40-4 (b) doesn't matter because this was never judged to be a try. This is the "Thrown" ball part of the rule in the scoring section.

[Edited by Jerry Blum on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 01:26 PM]

Jerry,
I retract my original opinion and concur with you on this. I think it's a 3.

Case Book pg 34 5.2.1 SITUTATION C

A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by B1 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket.

RULING: Three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense adn the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line.

Ok..I'll erase 4.40.4 B on pg 31 out of my casebook.

Aw Shucks! The heck with the rule book, common sense prevails! "It never was a try coach, it was clearly a pass and not a try, a thrown ball can be a pass or a try, in this case it was not a try, so it must have been a pass, you get 2. Now go put some ice on that kids head."

How's that sound.

Okay, my case book is at home. Do you mind telling me exactly what it says? Otherwise, I'll respond from home later tonight. :)

4.40.4 sit B..A1's 3 point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of a) A2; or b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.

Ruling: The 3 point try ended when it was obviously short, and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, 2 points are scored in both a) and b)

Interesting. 4.40.4 B and 5.2.1 C seem to be in direct contradiction of one another.

I think it comes down to: When does a try for a 3 end? If you take the approach I do, that when the pass does NOT have a chance to go in the basket, because either it is already below the rim, or is so far away from the basket that it does not have a chance to go in, then is deflected by B, it's a 2 pointer.

If on the other hand, you feel the pass had a chance to go in the basket, was not below the level of the ring, and B deflected it in, give them 3.

4-40-4

If you read the entire rule, "The try <b>ends</b> when the throw is successful, the throw is unsuccessful, when the <b>thrown ball touches the floor</b> or when the ball becomes dead."

The <b>thrown ball</b> touched the <b>defender</b>, not the floor.



[Edited by RollTide on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 02:51 PM]

So lets say we got a young Roger Clemons on Team A.

A1 is throwing it in from out of bounds at the division line, hits B1 and goes into the basket?

Hmmmmm

a Throw in is a different story because the thrower is OOB. I know there is a Case for that in the Case Book.

Not if you add the "intent" of the rule.

The implication of 5.2.1 is that the ball was thrown towards the basket in such a path that it may or may not be a shot. This rule was added to remove the judgement from the call. If the throw could have been a try and it had a chance to go in and does, it counts as 3.

In 4.40.4B, the ball, just prior to being touched by the defender had absolutely no chance of going in in flight (it was below the rim and coming down).

Regardless of the poorly written case plays, you have to know the situation they were trying to address.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 07:33 PM]

So I should continue to trust my instincts. :)
This makes sense.

2 pts.