I have been refereeing over 7 years and it seems that the parents of elementary and biddy ball games are getting worse and worse. Im in Louisiana and this season it seems like the parents have just gotten crazy screaming and hollering about calls, and on 2 seperate occasions have had to have fans escorted out because of their beligerance to me or my partner. Just wondering if we are worse than some of the other states.

No, LD, it's a national problem.

It seems like parents and fans have gotten crazy lately, what is so bad is I have a 7yo son who likes to go to the games with me, and sometimes i worry about his safety, because of the game his daddy called.

I worked some youth rec game with a guy I know and at about 4 min before the game started he looked at me and said: "watch this". He called for a Capt/Coaches Mtg. In that meeting he told the boys to hustle after the ball if it went in the corner and to have fun. He told the Coaches that they are responsible for the sportsmanship of themselves, their players and their fans. Any questions. Both Coaches said nope and we started the game. We worked 3 games and in 2 of them, there was out of control parents. We went to the Coach and reminded him of our meeting. Coach went and took care of it and now alot of us have that same meeting. Seems to be moving thru the ranks and games are alot more fun for everyone.

The younger the players, the worse the parents. Every kid out there is the next Lisa Leslie or Michael Jordan, and if you don't call it their way, the parents are getting cheated. Never mind what it does to the officials, how are these kids being affected?

Did some 7th and 8th grade girls yesterday. Girls were great..1 parent was the poster child for bad press at youth games. 2 minutes into the game, not knowing the teams at all, I knew who was her kid. I also got the obligatory "She passed to herself..that's a travel" on an attempted shot, and help with at least 125 travelling, "over the back," and "reaching" calls. With all that help, who said being a referee was hard???

Well said.

I got no problems in my area, I don't put up with it and I don't think any of the other officials do either. Two methods: (1) ask parent if he/she wants to leave (2) while holding the ball before throwin stare at him/her for several seconds.

Did a 7th grade girls travel yesterday and got to eject my first coach in 5 years. He apparantly did not agree with a no call from my partner and came running on to the floor screaming and hollaring with a couple of f-bombs in there for effect. I ran from the other end of the court to get between them and had him escorted out. Thank goodness the site director was about 6'-8" and 300 pounds.

Something has to be done. Maybe it's time we get some public service announcements out there during games on T.V. or form an organization like truth.com (the group that puts on all those anti tobacco ads) to get the word out that this sh1t's gotta stop.

Especially if you've got Snake-Eyes!

Another thing that works, especially if they are sitting in the first row, is to make sure you have a throw-in right where they are sitting. Put your mouth close to their ear and blow your whistle really loud. Take my word for it, it's as much fun as a barrel of monkeys.

The only down side is that if they go deaf, they'll think everything from that point on is a no call.

Sorry - I'm in kind of a "sick humor" mode today.

Hi Dave, where at in Louisiana are you at? Im in Centerville.

Hey brandon im in baton rouge

I added you to my yahoo. We can chat on there.

Fortunately, I haven't really had to deal with any really irate parents at youth league games, although the fact that I'm a pretty big guy helps out. It will be really hard to stop this problem, especially with middle schoolers appearing in Sports Illustrated, and the fact that many of the referees doing these games are relatively inexperienced in terms of game awareness. The parents are more competitive and the officials don't always have the tools to recognize or control this type of situation. The whole thing IMO starts with the coaches, if you control the coaches, the parents will then often (not always) follow suit. I think that any sort of a coaching box should be eliminated for MS and below games, that privilege should be reserved for HS coaches and zero tolerance policies should be implemented and enforced regarding the coach's behavior. Officials often don't penalize the coaches and the impact trickles down to the players and fans, and the game gets out of control. I also often see with younger officials and younger coaches, several adults standing on the bench. I think we take care of these things nationwide, things will begin to improve for the better.

As the father of a 10yo player, I confess that I got loud, but not abusive, early in the season because some of the officials were just so bad. But pressure from my wife, and a brief exchange with one young and very bad ref, convinced me that I should keep my mouth shut. Now I just appreciate the good officials, even if I disagree with them.

What drives me nuts, though, is the block/charge call, the correct interpretation of which I learned here. These refs call a block if the defender even blinks. Is the NFHS rule the same as the NCAA's, and if so, will it ever trickle down to the 10yo level?

You're kidding, right? Yelling at refs in a 10yo game?

Come one saturday down to baton rouge, and you will see lots of parents yelling at us at 10yo games, 4th grade, 3rd grade, etc. Its amazing what people believe we should/shouldnt call when these kids barely can dribble a basketball.

At the 10 year old level you can't apply the same standard to the refs as at the college level, and I certainly don't think you should get frustrated over block/charge calls. Frankly, a block/charge call in a 3rd/4th grade game happens about once in a blue moon and although I haven't done many games at that level, I can never recall having anything remotely close to a block/charge call in one of those games.

If you have problems with officials in your kids games you should get trained and go out and pick up a whistle. You clearly care enough to review this forum, so why not try calling a few games yourself. Doing so would enhance your credibility in evaluating officials and understanding the lack of tolerance that we have for certain types of fans/parents.

I wonder what the parental reaction would be if officials in a 3/4th grade game started calling everything...

I have coached my daughter's 5th and 6th grade team and am now coaching my son's 4th grade team this year ( I also officiate these grade levels when I can ) Every year it is getting worse.

This year at a local tournament a parent was upset because the ref did not call a foul on our team and started letting the f bombs fly . Finally the official called the coach over to calm her down, which I thought would work . She shut up , then she started letting the bird fly at the ref . I did a double take to see if that is actually what she was doing and it was . She continued this for the rest of the game ( the official never new it b/c she only " flew it " when his back was turned ) Then she started flying it to our parents ......... bad situation. At the next tournament the coach came up to me and said that he ended up removing the player from the team because of the parents actions. Evidently , this was not the first time for her actions.

We recently had our youth tournament( 4, 5 ,6th grade ) and I officiated a game with a HS student . At half time the student says " I'm getting pretty tired of the coach " I tell him that I will try to stay on the coach's side more often with ( the HS student forgets to switch &/or gets crossed up ) and maybe that will calm the coach down. ....... Wrong ..... he starts chirping and I really don't hear what he is saying until my 3rd trip up the floor . I put up the stop sign and say " Coach I've heard enough ".......... I guess he doesn't know what the stop sign is .......Whack ! I then explain to him that if he continues then he gets a seat in the parking lot . He then settles down and coaches his team to a win . After the game everyone is treating me like a hero b/c I gave him a technical , even the parents from his team.

I really believe that for the most part if the coaches are kept under control the parents usually follow. When I ref these games I give the coaches a little room but not too much. When they start to overstep I give them the stop sign then back it up. By being firm and consistant it does reduce a lot of the problems. I really do like working these games b/c the kids are great ........ unfortunately the parents can really ruin the good time.



[Edited by RefTip on Feb 21st, 2005 at 11:42 PM]

I give the coaches in these games zero room. At the youth level, the game is about development pure and simple. The first outburst will earn a stern warning or a T for me and the second outburst will definitely earn a T. Youth coaches should be held to the same if not to a higher standard as varsity coaches, especially since there is no pressure to win at the youth level.

The reason so many of these incidents happen is that young refs like the HS student you described will get intimidated and not take action against these coaches, and so the coaches continue to get away with more and more and incite the parents. No leeway, zero tolerance, these guys are supposed to be examples to their kids. And the fact that nobody took care of that guy at the tournament speaks volumes.

At the 10yo level these things are important:
1. The game should be fun
2. The players should be learning
3. The players should be having fun learning

These things should not matter:
1. Who wins
2. Who scores
3. Who is to blame if you lose

If you are screaming at a referee, none of the first three are happening and all of the second three just became important to your child. Every call, good or bad, that a referee makes in these games should be a teaching point, not an excuse to let off steam.

Starting at the subvarsity HS level, 2/3 kids that try to take a charge will still stick out a leg or arm. I'm talking about the principles of verticality here Squidward. If they do it there, how many times do you really think a 10 year old will properly take a charge? At that age group, you tend to see most of your offensive fouls called because a kid is pushing the defender away while dribbling. A 10 year old team that shoots 25% will win alot of games. That means if they will only make 1 out of 4 shots they'll probably win and you're worried about a block/charge call? At least I'd smile at you when I had you escorted out!

Sportsmanship definitely seeems to get worse as you move down in grade level. I think I throw 3 times as many T's at that level. Partly, admittedly, because I refuse to put up with much in a lower level game, but mostly because people are so ignorant. They learn everything they know (coaches and fans) from TV and we all know how accurate that is. Another problem is that there is very little accountablilty for these coaches. Sure, I may toss a coach from a weekend tournament, but where I'm at, there's no governing body to make sure he doesn't coach next week. If fact, I've workded tournaments where I'm pretty sure if I tossed someone, they'd be back for their next game. I enjoy helping the kids learn the game, but the coaches and fans make it almost unbearable. I am giving up these tournaments next year. I really didn't want to do any this year, but I bought a new computer Sunday and its a quick way to pick up some bucks.

I wish there were more t's in my youth league...
 

I coached my 6th grade girls in a championship game on Sunday. We won 4 straight to get there. The coach of the other team was ill tempered, bad mannered and the didn't even know the basic rules of the game. He wanted calls, calls and calls. He wanted my girls ejected for tying up the ball. He wanted them to stop stealing, stop pressing, stop everything that we were doing to win. He was on the floor screaming, his group of parents were screaming. We won by 2 points in the last 45 seconds. I told my girls to stall and run the clock. He screamed for his team to foul so they did. They inbounded, we stole it, he screamed some more. Finally as time ran out he ran on the floor screaming at the ref that they lost the game for him. The parents of his players demanded a rematch for "bad reffing" and wanted the refs reported. They wanted us to replay a championship game for a bunch of 11 year old youth ball players. I wished one of the refs would have handed out a T. The guy acted like he wanted one, heck give it to him. These coaches ruin it for everyone.

I know I hear a lot that no one cares about rec ball. I do because I try to teach the kids the rules, the game, the fundamentals AND make sure they have a good experience. Then maybe the HS games that do matter will be better for everyone.

I agree that the behavior becomes worse the younger the age group. Everyone parent has a superstar and budding WNBA player in the making. I'm burned out. I'm glad we won, but glad the league and tournament is over. I have a 7th grade AAU team starting tonight. New players, new faces, new start. Change is good.

Coach Gbert

I would venture a guess and say I've probably done more youth games than anyone on the board (at least 2500 - I'm not kidding). I was on the Board of our local youth rec league for 13 years and have worked youth games for at least seven different organizations. I have seen the sportsmanship level go from bad to awful. I'm sure there are tons of reasons for it.

Here's some of the mechanisms we have put in place in recent years in our local league (over 1500 kids in grades 3-12):

1) no coaching box
2) any profanity is a flagrant technical (except at HS level)
3) any ejection for unsportmanlike conduct is an automatic indefinite suspension which can only be ended by appealing to the Board
4) no backcourt press if lead is 15 or more
5) no backcourt guarding at all in 3rd and 4th grade
6) score turned off in 3rd and 4th if lead is 15 or more
7) (this is the big one) coaches are totally responsible for the behavior of their player's parents - indirect technicals can be called on coaches for parent misbehavior, however, the coaches are given a chance to deal with the parent first

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Feb 22nd, 2005 at 02:23 PM]

Coach

That was a refreshing post. I'm sure there are plenty of good coaches out there like you who get peeved at the cheesy coaches and fans too. Thanks!

Clark

Here's one I tried over the weekend. Parent was in normal form. At a TO I took an extra zebra shirt to him, told him my partner just hurt his foot and since he seemed to be well versed in the rules he could finish the game for him.

The other one was to go to the parent and ask him to go over his counting ability again so I could be sure I was doing it correctly.

Chris, you wouldn't have escorted me out because I never got abusive (as I said in my post). I did utter the occasional loud "No way!" or "Oh, come on!" I had a mild contretemps with a college kid ref when they neglected to check the arrow and gave the ball to the wrong team, which scored. I was the loudest of several in pointing out the error. But all I did was point out the error.

Why so defensive, folks? I saw the error of my ways. Don't you believe there are bad refs at this level?

As for the block/charge, the refs call about six blocks a game. In fifteen games, I've seen maybe three charge calls. These refs insist that the defender's feet be perfectly still. And no flinching, even if the kid gets clobbered by a dribbler flying along with his head down.

I believe there are bad refs at the elementary, jr, high school, and lower level college. These are the guys that are out there for the paycheck or to be seen. Not becuse they love the game or enjoy it.

Even if they are bad, they are your brothers/ sisters, and you should be behind them 100% even if they screw a call.

For the most part, no. I don't believe there are "bad refs." I know there are "new refs." New refs often times have the same rules misconceptions as fans do. New refs are often out of position, and almost always lack the judgment of experienced officials. This doens't make them "bad refs." It simply makes them "new refs." The difference is more than semantics. The difference is what makes us defensive, since the vast majority of us were there at one time.
"Bad refs?" There may be a few, but they're so far in between that I don't use the term.

I have to admit I used to be table crew for our CYO teams but stopped partly because adults thought their roles were far more important than the kids learning game fundamentals, teambuilding skills, and simply having fun.

The sad part is that it gets worse as they get older and many coaches are resigning because they don't want to or can't deal with the player and parent egos.

[QUOTE Squidward] Chris, you wouldn't have escorted me out because I never got abusive (as I said in my post). I did utter the occasional loud "No way!" or "Oh, come on!"

[ChrisSportsFan]There is no way I can say this without sounding egotistical so here it is: I officiated 40 varsity games, 2 small-time college games and about 50 lower level HS games in the past 3 months. I also love to work youth games and I have a goal/mechanic with every rec game that I want to work on. However, I do not take any crap from parents at these games. Most of the time they don't have much of a clue about the rules and they don't care that they are embarrassing their kids and spouse. Where I’m headed with this is that when I and my fellow HS officials work a youth rec game, parents and coaches need to be more grateful that they have higher quality officials on their game. Do I still miss stuff on these games? Easy answer, YES! But if obnoxious parents want to complain every trip down the court, do you think varsity officials will continue working youth games? Easy answer, NO! Would I have had you escorted out? I’d say you were toeing the line and had better zip it.

[Quote Squidward]I was the loudest of several in pointing out the error. But all I did was point out the error.

[ChrisSportsFan]I guess if others were doing it then it’s ok.

[Quote Squidward] But pressure from my wife, convinced me that I should keep my mouth shut.

[ChrisSportsFan]Why do you think she said something? Last weekend I worked games down at the Special Olympics and those parents never said a word. They were happy to see their kids run up and down the court.

Quote Squidward] Why so defensive, folks? I saw the error of my ways. Don't you believe there are bad refs at this level?

[ChrisSportsFan]Sure, as Snaqwells said, there are New Refs and sometime not so new refs that don’t work for the angles and miss-apply rules. The rec games I work, we are expected to tutor these newbies and help bring them along. Do you think your outbursts are helping?

[Quote Squidward]As for the block/charge, the refs call about six blocks a game. In fifteen games, I've seen maybe three charge calls. These refs insist that the defender's feet be perfectly still. And no flinching, even if the kid gets clobbered by a dribbler flying along with his head down.

[ChrisSportsFan]As I said before, sometimes refs miss-apply rules, but many times, the defender will lean into the dribbler, stick an arm or leg out or something like that which makes it an easy block call on the D. Parents don’t see this and they certainly don’t watch a game in the same way an official does. I didn’t see these exact situations you described so it’s hard to comment. I’m just trying to give you some things to consider.

I think the bigger trend with more impact is the fact that these games are becoming more competitive. I can't speak for basketball, but in Michigan youth soccer, majors teams, with tryouts, tournaments, $1000+ cost per season and everything are down to U-10. 9 year olds. 3rd graders. Having to tryout for a soccer team. And now, if the kid doesn't make it onto a good majors team at U-10 or U-11, forget premier, forget club, forget high school, and definetly forget college, pros or international. Those have been some of the worst games I've refed as a soccer official (a lot of that is due to the fact that I'm the only one out there, but that's another story).

I was refing a U-7 game (1st graders), which is typically a no-contact rugby scrum back and forth until the ball pops out into a goal or out of bounds. I typically are fairly relaxed in these games, most notably any inbounding type play (throw-ins, goal kicks, corners) I give them an extra chance. Anyway, a little girl fouls another little girl. They go down in a heap, but pop right back up. This kids can barely run straight without falling over, so obviously no harm was intended. I had to physically restrain the coach of the player who was fouled from walking across the field and confronting the other coach, who, to his credit, took the high road and ignored him. What made my job tough was after calming down the coach, I then had to red card him, which got him riled up again (he dropped a f-bomb, and when I ref a soccer game, the field is my office. You kinda have reason to step on a basketball court, but not a soccer field, while yelling obscenties and making it halfway over).

Another incident was when I was waiting out a delayed game while a thunderstorm passed over. Everyone was in their cars, except me and the two coaches. The one coach though was continually demanding that I call the game. It was May, there would be plenty of light to play until 8:30-9:00 if neccessary, so I decided to wait it out, since it looked like it was going to pass. The one coach continued to badger me. A semi-truck rumbled down the road next to the field, and the coach refused to believe it wasn't a roll of thunder. Eventually I called the game, but not until the coach called me a liar, and that I had no respect for anyone's safety (when he said this, I pointed out that he could wait in the safety of his car like everyone else). He did the whole "I'm gonna report you" speil and left. The other coach came up, confirmed with me that he had been pressuring me to call the game, and said he was the commisioner of the league. I learned later that the coach was adament about not replaying the game, and finally let it slip that he didn't want his "playoff seeding" to be affected by playing the best team in the league. Too bad Troy Youth Soccer does random brackets.

Bottom line, you shouldn't be trying out for teams, investing a ton of money, or travling hundreds of miles until the kids are in middle school. If there were more decent coaches at the youth rec level, then there wouldn't be a need to identify kids with potential and give them better teaching at such a young age. The side effect is that players, coaches and parents are now going nuts much earlier.

Juulie almost quoted my exact words that I have repeated over and over -- "the younger the players the dumber the parents!" It's a universal truth.