I have done a lot of rec games over my 10+ years experience as an official. Mostly, the games are Bantam (7-9 grades) to Senior (10-12 grades) boys. About half of these "experienced" (7-10 yrs, some certified but most are not) partners that I work the games with have a habit as the L of warning defensive players to get out of the paint to avoid a 3 sec call. They will also advise defensive players not to reach or "get your hand off" in a hand check situation. This fact has always driven me nuts.

I had a senior boys game recently where in the 2nd quarter I tagged a 3 (I usally count it to 4 to give the benefit of the doubt) on an offensive player who retorted that I had to give him a warning first. I told him that I'm not in the warning business but in the calling business when it comes to such calls, any calls. I would say that it's not entirely his fault but rather the result of being conditioned over time that warnings are given by too many refs in our league.

Now, two things that I'll throw out there for comment. 1.) at these levels, players are experienced enough to know these rules that cause these types of fouls and violations. I think we all can agree on that. And, 2) it is not the job of the officials to coach but rather to just call them, simply. It should be the job of the coaches to discern, or ask, what is or isn't being tolerated on the floor and relay that to his players. I haven't taken the time to look this one up in the rule book as of yet. Just thought I throw it out there for now to you all for comment and interpretation. Thanks.

I agree...players should know the rules. So should the officials but I still see some put both arms up like they are reaching over someone and call "Over the back". Coaches should also know all the rules...but many don't bother with the finer points. That is why they occassionally ask questions...I assume you try to deal with them.

I am of the opinion that while we are not there to coach the players we need to remember the people behind the benches did not come there to watch us blow our whistle and prance around. If I can quickly say things like "clear the paint, guys", "Don't push", "Keep it clean", "Watch the hands" and keep the game flowing smoothly without giving someone an unfair advantage I should do so...just not the entire game

There is no harm in doing it...in fact, I view it as a part of good game management.

If you like calling 3-seconds, then go ahead. If you'd rather continue the game without having the violation in the first place, then tell the players to "CLEAR" the lane.

JMO

Usually a couple of times in the first quarter I'll say "clear" or "get out" and I'll also remind players with a "hands off" or "straight up". I'm not coaching or giving an advantage because it's done at both ends. I believe it's preventitive officiating that helps get the flow of the game going. I usually don't do it beyond the first few minutes but I think it helps player know we're watching and people would rather watch them play than us officiate.

See the tread on; What is more important....

Hi Chuck!!!! :)

Yes I agree with Chuck. I'll try and talk them out of it every time, but if they refuse to listen then I'll nail them with it. At the higher levels though, usually this only needs to be done once. Also, around here, a lot of the big guns (i.e. not me! :) ) view the 3 seconds call as a chicken sh*t call! :D

If he's loitering in there, waiting for his girlfriend to take a picture, I'll tell him to move. If he's affecting the play, I'll tag him. I'm okay with warning him or just tagging him. We warn all the time here, but we've never had players say they are owed a warning.

I'm assuming you misspoke when you say he warned a <i>defensive</i> player about 3-seconds

I have seen players running out of the lane and 3 seconds is called.

I have seen a player called for 3 seconds with the tip of his shoe on the lane line with the ball on the other side of the court.

I have seen 3 seconds called while the ball is in the air on a shot.

3 seconds is not a chicken sh!t call, but there is a time for it to be called.

Eliminate it from your game and you will be surprised how much of the game you've been missing!

JMO

I hated this opinion when I finished my officiating class. 2 years later ... it's eliminated.

I'm also slow on travelling violations unless it totally rediculous. I've watched enough game film to see that what looks like a travel usually isn't.

Thanks for the interesting replies so far.
 

I agree with the philosphy that we're not there to interupt game flow. I love those blessed stretches where play is good and whistles are muted. And, I know the crowd watching is enjoying it too and you almost hate to end it all with a tweet; but, such is our job.

I also agree that it would be beneficial to be more vocal early in the game to help players understand what thier doing; and, thus will understand better when they've been tagged later in the game. However, the said officals I'm speaking of tend to do it the entire game. As long as anything is equitable between teams, and aids game flow, throughout a game I guess I wouldn't take issue with this strategy. However, the one call, the 3 sec call, I find is more crucial than some give it credit for, as some "big guns" find it. Those who camp out in the lane gain a big advantage because that area is the highest percentage field goal area on the floor i.e. easy basket and the highest percentage, per position, for offensive rebounding i.e. put backs. I rarely see any hesitation on the part of NCAA D1 or NBA officals to make this call (and, I watch far too much basketball). Thought I would just interject these thoughts as the the tread flows i.e. this is better than actually working today and watching 3 inches, per hour, of white crap fall outside my office here in Syracuse. Again, thanks for the input on my post.

Which other rules do you all choose to ignore?

Rainmaker, no I didn't misspeak
 

(is misspeak a word?). In a manner of speaking (the biggest expample I hear is "get out of there") the players are warned that they're camping out.

Re: Rainmaker, no I didn't misspeak
 

I think what she meant was that defensive players can be in the key for as long as they want. It's those pesky offensive players that need to get out. But hey, if you never call it, I guess it doesn't matter. ;)

Re: Re: Rainmaker, no I didn't misspeak
 

Yes, misspeak is a word. (Obviously biased political comment omitted).

Smitty's right. I was saying that I hope your partner isn't warning the defense. Warning the offense is debatable, but warning the defense is just plain wrong!

Re: Rainmaker, no I didn't misspeak
 

I've never whistled a D-player for being in the lane to long. Dang, guess I better get with it!

I don't ignore 3 seconds, but like Thump suggested, I choose to put emphasis on other things like offensive screeners and contact made trying to establish post positioning. Don't call it ignoring, call it prioritizing.

If it makes you feel better to look at it that way, knock yourselves out.

No, I (he) didn't mean the defensive
 

players but rather the offensive players. Sorry for the confusion, I didn't read Rainmaker's post carefully enough as to whether it was being referred as offensive or defensive players in the paint.

Would you really like a list, or were you being sarcastic Smitty?

I was simply saying that as an official, looking for other infractions or violations of the rules during play in your area, maybe there would be no need for calling 3 seconds!

[Edited by thumpferee on Feb 16th, 2005 at 12:33 PM]

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I find it interesting when other officials say it's wrong to call 3-second violations. And to say you only call traveling when it's "rediculous (sic)" is fascinating to me.

I never warn on 3 seconds, but I warn on hands, especially in the post. After the warning, next time it is a foul. Warning works for the hands. On 3 sec. I make sure it is 4 and if the player is moving out of the lane, I usually don't call it. It's the player "camped" in there that gets the call.

What does that even mean? If you can't see everything you need to see, you are probably missing a lot more than the 3-second call. I think using the excuse that you are prioritizing is a crutch. That's just my opinion.

Smitty
 

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. If you don't like it, you don't have to take it. But others may find insight in it, or not.

And as far as the comment, "If you can't see everything you need to see, you are probably missing a lot more than the 3-second call", WTF does that mean? Oh sorry, you never missed a call.

Who says I miss the 3 second call? I was simply saying I'm not gonna miss a clearout foul, or an illegal screen, or an elbow to the jaw because I was sitting there counting to 3 because a player has been there for 1 sec.

And if you don't prioritize your calls based on situations throughout the game, maybe some evaluation is in order.

That's just my opinion.

"And to say you only call traveling when it's "rediculous (sic)" is fascinating to me". Where did this come from?

But I would rather not call it when it is traveling, than to call it when it isn't. But that's just me prioritizing again.


[Edited by thumpferee on Feb 16th, 2005 at 01:03 PM]

Re: Smitty
 

What it means is that you don't need to be staring at a kid to see he's been in the lane for 3,4 and 5 seconds. You use your peripheral vision. There is a comfort level with being able to see what you need to see without having to stare at everything. Perhaps that just comes with experience. You are the one who said you have eliminated 3-seconds from your game. So essentially you said that you missed the 3-second call, my friend.

I never implied I haven't missed calls. I only implied I'm more aware of what's going on in my area than perhaps you are.

Re: Smitty
 

That was something the other guy who said he has eliminated the 3-second call from his game said.

Re: Re: Smitty
 

Who said you need to stare at a kid? Who said peripheral vision is not needed and used? Who said I have eliminated 3 seconds from my game? Who said I missed a 3 second call? Who said I am not aware of what's going on in my area?

What I was trying to say originally was to watch for more than just 3 seconds! By eliminating it even temporarily, you may see other things you may have been missing as an official.

You always want to make things so complicated and personal! Personally, I will guarantee I am a better official than you are. So don't give me the experience and court awareness spill and try to make yourself look better by trying to put me down, it doesn't work.

And by the way, it is a violation if there for 3 seconds, not 4 or 5. What other rules do you choose to ignore?

Re: Re: Re: Smitty
 

"Personally, I will guarantee I am a better official than you are."

The fact that you even considered this thought tells more about you than anything else you've written. The words of a fool.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. :rolleyes:

[Edited by Smitty on Feb 16th, 2005 at 03:02 PM]

What an old, tired, worn-out comment...everyone makes decisions on what to call and not call in every single game they officiate...even Smitty (unless his games are three hour long marathons)...every time we choose to not call something because it had no impact on the play or the game, someone can say we are "ignoring the rule"...and my response would be "Yup...on that play I sure did"...that's what judgement is all about.

There's a difference between using your judgement and saying blatantly that you've eliminated a particular call from your game. That's pre-judgement.

Apology accepted!

You know I care what you think of me Smitty!

Well said, Rocky! Thanks!

My point was, if you call 3 seconds, you should call it at 3 seconds like the rule book says. Not 4, not 5, not using peripheral vision, not because it's in your area, because it is the rule. Gimma a break.

My point was that 3 seconds should not be a priority call!

I have been watching NCAA Bball for, well I'm 38 and have watched Bball as a ritual since I can remember, and have NEVER seen 3 seconds called that I can remember! That should say something about 3 seconds!

...well I'm 38 and have watched Bball as a ritual since I can remember, and have NEVER seen 3 seconds called that I can remember! That should say something about 3 seconds!

[/B][/QUOTE]

NEVER (in caps nonetheless)?? Rather strong assertion for a call I've observed in basketball many times in my 45 years. Then and now regardless of the level of play. Not a priority call? Maybe, but I would argue that camping out gives the offensive player a definite advantage by being able to shoot from the highest percentage area on the court and, be in one of the most advantageous areas on the court for a rebound or tip in/put back. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you but I think there is some measureable water underneath what I'm asserting here.

As a newer official, I do put an emphasis on specific parts of my game. Looking for traveling, hand checks, illegal screens or whatever violation I seem to be having a problem calling lately. I could work 20 years, as some of you have, and still have a differing opinion with half the gym with every block/charge call. I have seen several three second calls in NCAA this year in the Big Ten. But it still comes down to preventative officiating. If I can warn a player to get out the the lane or get their hands off we get a much better game flow. I had a game last night with no fouls called in a quarter and I had a game last week where all we did was walk from end to end to shoot free throws because the players would not get their hands off each other. A well played game is always more fun to work.

NEVER (in caps nonetheless)?? Rather strong assertion for a call I've observed in basketball many times in my 45 years. Then and now regardless of the level of play. Not a priority call? Maybe, but I would argue that camping out gives the offensive player a definite advantage by being able to shoot from the highest percentage area on the court and, be in one of the most advantageous areas on the court for a rebound or tip in/put back. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you but I think there is some measureable water underneath what I'm asserting here. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think I said NEVER that I can remember, Imsureofit!

And yes I agree it is a definate advantage to be hanging out in the lane and it should be called in certain situations.

I have just seen it called so many times this year and nobody was in the lane when it was called, or the ball was in the air on a shot etc..

Maybe I have just been disguested by the way the rule has been interpreted by fellow officials this year that has made me reluctant to want to make the call.

I will call it when it is definately the call that needs to be made.

And definately not because the opposing coach is screaming 3 seconds from the opposite end of the court.

Thanks for your thoughts
 

Thump. And, yeah, I too have seen this called made incorrectly many times; so frustrating for game flow outside of just being criminal on a call that's not too hard to make. Also, I'm not attempting to explain why the 3 second rule exists but rather why I can see that it exists. That may be a redundant statement. Sorry, hope you get my drift.

Oh, and my usual reply, when time permits, to coaches who like to help me call the game is a sarcastic thanks for the help coach; they usually get it but some still continue until I have to up the anty.