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-   -   QUESTION - Calling Intentional Foul with 26 seconds left (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/18486-question-calling-intentional-foul-26-seconds-left.html)

bradfordwilkins Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:40pm

High School rules - intermural game

We had Team A down by about 4 with 26 seconds to go. Missed shot by Team A, rebound by B1 outside the paint who is about to begin dribbling the ball up the floor. A1 comes full speed into the paint and grabs B2 (who is also in the paint) in a complete bear hug, with momentum first moving them forward but then with A1 starting to pull B2 backwards while B1 has already begun his dribble and is about halfway to the outer edge of the 3-point line. To add to the flavor, while not a qualifying nor affecting part of the call, the entire Team A was screaming to "foul, foul!"

At the point where A1 begins to tighten his bear hug and pull B2 backwards, I call Intentional Foul. What would you say for the call? Of note perhaps, I almost considered calling a flagrant foul, that was the level of intensity of the foul.

Both my partners questioned the call after the game (although not questioning whether it by the BOOK was an intentional foul, but rather whether when they are fouling to stop the clock that it should just be a regular foul)

I normally agree to giving some leeway to these late game situations, however, IMO I made the right call because there was clearly no play on the ball and because of the aggressive nature of the foul.

Your thoughts and/or encouragement would be appreciated :)

Thanks

JugglingReferee Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:46pm

I've got an intentional foul.

My contention is that we have to discourage that type of behavoir.

tjones1 Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:47pm

I think you got it right. In situations like this though, whenever I know they are wanting to foul, I'm getting the first little thing that way it doesn't result to a bigger thing. But if he bear hugged him and took him to the floor, you've got to call it, IMO.

JRutledge Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:14am

The defender has to give you some reason not to make that call. Sounds like a good call to me. They should have tried to at least play the ball.

Peace

RookieDude Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:32am

Good call. tjones1 has it absolutely correct also.

If you know the game even a little...you know the team behind is going to foul in situations like this.
I call the first touch in most cases to keep the rough stuff to a minimum.

Had my first intentional of the season last week-end.
4A boys Varsity. Visiting team B had beaten the first place team in the league, at B's home, the night before.
Home team A was putting a pretty good beating on Team B.
(Final score 82-35)
Both teams are in the middle of the pack and fighting for a playoff spot.
Player B1 was getting frustrated toward the end of the game...about 2 minutes left.
A1 had rebounded the ball at his own basket and was getting ready to put up a shot...B1 was out of position and didn't want A1 to get an easy put back...so B1 grabbed A1 from behind with both arms to prevent the put back. I initially put the fist straight up for the foul...but in a nano second B1 gave a little extra "bear hug" with A1 almost losing his balance and falling. The crowd noise went up over their apparent displeasure of this "extra" act. I immediately went with the crossed arms, paused, and held it as the two players untangled...no further activity between the two happened.
I walked to the table holding the crossed arms for a little longer than maybe I had to. ;)
The crowd hushed...I don't think they totally knew what the crossed arms meant...but, they knew something was different.
I reported the intentional and went directly to Coach B.
I said something to the effect of, "C'mon Coach, we don't need any of this."
He said, with somewhat of a twinkle in his eye, "Aw, he was just trying to hold him from falling down...anyway, if you and I were playing...I would have to stop you from making that shot to."
"Yeah coach, but you wouldn't have to have the extracurricular stuff...I possibly could have even called that flagrant."
That was about it...we put the ball in play on the endline...and away we went...the rest of the game went uneventful.


CaptStevenM Tue Feb 15, 2005 01:04am

I'm with you on this one bradford. There is a different from running up and tapping a player on the front and back to get a foul to stop the clock and grabbing a player in a bear hug and pulling him.

Just out of curiousity, where do you ref intramurals?

BktBallRef Tue Feb 15, 2005 01:09am

That's an intentional foul, no matter the score or time.

I made one similiar to this earlier in the year. Coach knew it was intentional before I could even signal. He had no problem with it.

bradfordwilkins Tue Feb 15, 2005 01:17am

Captain - at the University of Maryland-College Park. Go Terps!

I've got about 20 games under my belt this season alone and will be sad when the season is over in a few weeks.

Anyone in the DC area looking for a great rookie ref who loves to learn and has a good understanding of the game and rules, let me know. Would love to work some more.


dblref Tue Feb 15, 2005 08:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Good call. tjones1 has it absolutely correct also.

If you know the game even a little...you know the team behind is going to foul in situations like this.
I call the first touch in most cases to keep the rough stuff to a minimum.

Had my first intentional of the season last week-end.
4A boys Varsity. Visiting team B had beaten the first place team in the league, at B's home, the night before.
Home team A was putting a pretty good beating on Team B.
(Final score 82-35)
Both teams are in the middle of the pack and fighting for a playoff spot.
Player B1 was getting frustrated toward the end of the game...about 2 minutes left.
A1 had rebounded the ball at his own basket and was getting ready to put up a shot...B1 was out of position and didn't want A1 to get an easy put back...so B1 grabbed A1 from behind with both arms to prevent the put back. I initially put the fist straight up for the foul...but in a nano second B1 gave a little extra "bear hug" with A1 almost losing his balance and falling. The crowd noise went up over their apparent displeasure of this "extra" act. I immediately went with the crossed arms, paused, and held it as the two players untangled...no further activity between the two happened.
I walked to the table holding the crossed arms for a little longer than maybe I had to. ;)
The crowd hushed...I don't think they totally knew what the crossed arms meant...but, they knew something was different.
I reported the intentional and went directly to Coach B.
I said something to the effect of, "C'mon Coach, we don't need any of this."
He said, with somewhat of a twinkle in his eye, "Aw, he was just trying to hold him from falling down...anyway, if you and I were playing...I would have to stop you from making that shot to."
"Yeah coach, but you wouldn't have to have the extracurricular stuff...I possibly could have even called that flagrant."
That was about it...we put the ball in play on the endline...and away we went...the rest of the game went uneventful.


I'm assuming you shot 2 for the intentional and "then put the ball in play on the endline".

dblref Tue Feb 15, 2005 08:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Captain - at the University of Maryland-College Park. Go Terps!

I've got about 20 games under my belt this season alone and will be sad when the season is over in a few weeks.

Anyone in the DC area looking for a great rookie ref who loves to learn and has a good understanding of the game and rules, let me know. Would love to work some more.


Come on over to Cardinal in northern VA. We are always looking for good officials. http://www.cboa.org


CaptStevenM Tue Feb 15, 2005 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Captain - at the University of Maryland-College Park. Go Terps!

I've got about 20 games under my belt this season alone and will be sad when the season is over in a few weeks.

Anyone in the DC area looking for a great rookie ref who loves to learn and has a good understanding of the game and rules, let me know. Would love to work some more.


NC State Wolfpack...Here's to the game tomorrow.

Mark Padgett Tue Feb 15, 2005 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins

Both my partners questioned the call after the game (although not questioning whether it by the BOOK was an intentional foul, but rather whether when they are fouling to stop the clock that it should just be a regular foul)

If fouling just to stop the clock is not an intentional foul, then what is? That's why it says so in the BOOK. What else do they not call that's in the BOOK?

RookieDude Tue Feb 15, 2005 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Good call. tjones1 has it absolutely correct also.

If you know the game even a little...you know the team behind is going to foul in situations like this.
I call the first touch in most cases to keep the rough stuff to a minimum.

Had my first intentional of the season last week-end.
4A boys Varsity. Visiting team B had beaten the first place team in the league, at B's home, the night before.
Home team A was putting a pretty good beating on Team B.
(Final score 82-35)
Both teams are in the middle of the pack and fighting for a playoff spot.
Player B1 was getting frustrated toward the end of the game...about 2 minutes left.
A1 had rebounded the ball at his own basket and was getting ready to put up a shot...B1 was out of position and didn't want A1 to get an easy put back...so B1 grabbed A1 from behind with both arms to prevent the put back. I initially put the fist straight up for the foul...but in a nano second B1 gave a little extra "bear hug" with A1 almost losing his balance and falling. The crowd noise went up over their apparent displeasure of this "extra" act. I immediately went with the crossed arms, paused, and held it as the two players untangled...no further activity between the two happened.
I walked to the table holding the crossed arms for a little longer than maybe I had to. ;)
The crowd hushed...I don't think they totally knew what the crossed arms meant...but, they knew something was different.
I reported the intentional and went directly to Coach B.
I said something to the effect of, "C'mon Coach, we don't need any of this."
He said, with somewhat of a twinkle in his eye, "Aw, he was just trying to hold him from falling down...anyway, if you and I were playing...I would have to stop you from making that shot to."
"Yeah coach, but you wouldn't have to have the extracurricular stuff...I possibly could have even called that flagrant."
That was about it...we put the ball in play on the endline...and away we went...the rest of the game went uneventful.


I'm assuming you shot 2 for the intentional and "then put the ball in play on the endline".

Good assumption...sure that was going on while the coach and I were having our little chat.
And a good observation dblref. :)

Mark Dexter Tue Feb 15, 2005 06:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bradfordwilkins
Captain - at the University of Maryland-College Park. Go Terps!

I've got about 20 games under my belt this season alone and will be sad when the season is over in a few weeks.

Anyone in the DC area looking for a great rookie ref who loves to learn and has a good understanding of the game and rules, let me know. Would love to work some more.


I'm down at GW (Go, Colonials! BB&T champs!), but went up and worked last year's NIRSA regionals at UMD - any chance you were at those?

I don't know about you, but this is my senior year, and I'm not sure how much high school ball I'll be able to do starting next year, so any game could be my last.

As to the foul - this is definately intentional. Something further to consider (because this is intramurals) is just ending the game when the score is disparate and a team starts fouling like this. I had a game just last night where the losing team was down by 13 points and had a grab/push/bearhug foul. I called it, signaled intentional, then saw there were 5.5 seconds on the clock, so I ended the game (heated tempers all around already - didn't wawnt to make them worse when I didn't have to).

Get in.
Get out.
Get done.

bradfordwilkins Tue Feb 15, 2005 06:52pm

Mark - Actually just transferred here from NYC so wasn't there last year.

As far as ending the game, the score was close (3 points, 26 seconds). The reason it caused a bit of a stir was they were trying to foul to stop the clock. I don't have any problem with that and will usually be able to identify what a team is doing enough to call the quick touch fouls rather than let it get too physical.

The issue here was the kid went straight to this overly physical bear-hug with a player who did not nor ever (on that play) had the ball. To be honest, I think in the spirit of the game I wouldn't call an intentional had the player who was fouled had the ball.

But given the ball was just another 2-3 large strides away as well as other Team A players in the vacinity of the ball who could've fouled the ballhandler, I am satisfied with my call and appreciate the thoughts contributed.



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