Do any of your associations have limitations set on how often one can attend the State Tournament?

I was just notified of the four local officials our association is sending to the Girls State Tournament.

Three of the four are also going two weeks later to work at the Boys State Tournament.

Most of these seem to be permanent fixtures that our association sends year after year after year. All of these individuals have gone to the State Tournament before... some of them many multiple times.

Of course they also get to do most of the preliminary (District) games deciding which teams go to the State Tournament.

Are they good officials? Yes. Heads and shoulders better than everyone else? Not even close. Yes I feel slighted - many in our association feel slighted.:(

I'm one of the President's of our association and I think many of our officials would like to see the wealth shared. Does anyone have recommendations that we could put in our By-Laws that would help us get tournament assignments distributed more equitably among our officials.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Feb 23rd, 2005 at 01:20 PM]

This is part of a debate going on here (Portland, OR) right now. Who should go and what, if any, limitations should there be.

There are 5 tourneys: 4A boys, 4A girls, 3A boys/girls, 2A boys/girls, and 1A boys/girls.

Right now, the top 14 vote getters get a tourney assignment and an official can only go to one tourney in a given year.

In addition, an official can not go to a tourney more than two years in a row. They must sit out every third year. (This is a statewide rule).

This effectively uses a pool of 21 officials for the tourneys with a few changes from year to year.

There are proposals that would expand this in various manners to include a few to several more people in the rotation. (We have about 350 people in the association).

The biggest point made is that the process is so subjective (by peer and coach vote) that how can you really say that the person that is constantly #22-25 is really not as good as the person that is #18-21.

In any case, no one here would even think of letting the same guys/gals go the more than one tourney in a single year. There are just too many good officials for that to even be reasonable.

Our association rules are that an official can only go to state in <b> either </b> girls or boys in a given year.

We also have a rule that an official has to sit out one year if he/she has gone to state two years in a row for boys or girls.

The second rule means that I will not be going to state this year. However, I fully support both rules and am happy that our association spreads the wealth and gives as many qualified officials as possible the opportunity to experience state tournaments.

Z

As I understand it in our association, the chapter submits a list of names to "nominate" officials for regional and state assignment consideration (not sure about the number of names on each list). There are seperate list for boys regional, boys state, girls regional and girls state.

Our chapter chooses not to put an official on more than one list in a given year. They also choose to rotate the officials they nominate...and I think they will not put you on the list more than two years in a row.

Not sure who selects the officials or what info is submitted with the names. Since I have only been in the chapter a couple of years I am not eligible for playoffs (probably another couple of years).

Playoff assignments for the first 2 rounds are made by the assignment secretary, with input from the board. Schools can request certain officials. In the past, those request were filled regardless of the qualifications. This year, if an official does not meet all the requirements for a playoff assignment the coach is told they are unavailable...about time.

In Indiana
 

2 Tournaments in Indiana: 1 boys & 1 girls

4 levels in each tournament: sectionals, regionals, semi-state, state

An official must get voted into the tournament via a YES/NO vote. "Yes" vote is worth 1 point "no" vote is -2 points. Every year there are a openings in each tournament. There are usually 10-20 openings in the girls' tournament and about 2-10 openings for the boys' tournament. Any official who is certified can apply to get into each tournament. There are usually 120+ new tournament officials who apply each year. You have to be in the top "X openings" number of rankings to get in (i.e. if there are 10 openings, you must rank 10th or better out of all the applying officials to get in!)

Once in, an official must do 3 sectionals before being eligible for a regional; 3 regionals to be eligible for semi-state; and 3 semi-states to be eligible for the state. These games do not have to come in successive years...just 3 total. Once an official does a state game, he/she must start over. HOWEVER, they only have to spend ONE year at each level the next time through. We used to limit officials to 3 states for each gender, but that has been revoked. Now, you can go as many times as you can make it.

So, there are usually 256 officials who work each tournament. After your first year, you must stay ranked higher than the bottom 5% or you go back into the "yes/no" pool. That means the bottom 12-14 officials get booted and go back onto the "yes/no" list.

In Montana, the policy is set that you can only work two tournaments below state level each year, and only one state tourney each year. This covers all four classifications and genders. In addition, an official con only work the same tournament for two consecutive years.
The selection is made by the state office and consists of a combination of coaches ballots, the individual pools ratings, and other factors such as location of the tournament, etc.

As it relates to just making the playoffs, the answer is no.

There is an "unwritten rule" as it relates to how many times someone works a state final. We have been told that 3 times is enough. For the most part they have stuck to that over the last 20 years or more. There was a guy last year that went his fourth time and that was because there was some conflict for him to work the Championship game (with a school). That was an unusual case and I cannot think of any other situation where an official went 4 times. Now those number of times are based on which side of the gender you are working those games. I am not talking about working both genders to come up with that number. You could theoretically work 3 Girl's and 3 Boy's State Finals in your career.

Peace

Guess what! Our Association Board has scheduled a meeting to discuss this very topic... without any prompting from me.

Does anyone else have any other suggestions?

It really seems like for most of you there are some statewide rules that set limitations and that for some, there are also additional rules at your local association level.

What works? What doesn't? What rules are in place that are upsetting to the association's constituents? If we are able to establish some policies, I don't want to create any problems.

I appreciate any help you can offer.

What are you trying to accomplish? What kind of limitations do you want, if any?

I guess I have a problem with putting too many limitations on people if they are simply the best. I can see you might want to limit the times someone works a State Final, but not just the playoffs. I think if you are good, you should work the playoffs until there are others that are just as good or better.

Peace

In Georgia, the GHSA controls the selection of State Tournament officials, based upon recommendations of local associations, camp attendance, and evaluations.
The 25 local officials' associaitons have little to say in the matter.

We have lots of officials who have worked the State Tournament for many, many years (well over 10 years). The same officlas do not always get a final, but tend to more often than not.

One of the obstacles is a fair ratings/evaluation system. I've yet to see one that I like. Many systems, as Camron pointed out, are just too subjective.

I think there's something to be said for having the best officials available for the good of the game and kids. I had one official state that "if you were a coach at the state tourney, you wouldn't play your second string more than your first "just to spread it around".

That analogy would work if officials only worked four years, then graduated to the next level (or quit).

Therefore, I believe that big-game limitations are necessary to create greater opportunities for younger or less sesoned officials to cultivate their skills in a challenging environment.

This process would making the association stronger as a whole. This should be your approach; avoid the "it's my turn" argument.

Best? Way too subjective, IMO.

States should have a pool of people who they would feel confident in sending to the state tournament and spread the wealth. When I'm king nobody would work more than one girls and one boys state final in a lifetime unless there was nobody else qualified to work the game.

The "best" might be a subjective label. But we all know of people that consistently do the job year in and year out. There are also officials that cannot do the job at all. That might be subjective, but that is just the truth. And to say that someone should only work one state final is also IMO not very practical. Then you are going to have a bunch of people that either are not ready, or never were truly qualified in the first place to work games. I have no problem with a limit on how many state finals someone works (we have one here for the most part). I just think one is too restrictive. I am just saying that you should not throw away those that have proven themselves over an extended period of time. And you should not move guys that can barely handle a big time regular season game, let alone a playoff game that will affect seniors and memories for life. I am not saying officials should work forever, but you should not put officials with very little experience on games of that magnitude.

Peace

Who said you would put officials with no experience in games of that magnitude? You'd still have to "work your way up the ladder" before going to state. You'd still have to work regionals, sectionals, substates, and all those preliminary rounds that states have.

I think I counted 622 officials in my state that were "playoff eligible." 48 officials here work the state tournament every season. No reason that you couldn't pick out a different batch of 48 every season.

But the problem is this -- it takes manpower and effort to identify those people who would do well in the state tournament and it's much easier to just send somebody again, and again, and again. And people like the OP may be good enough to work, but don't.

I'm not complaining personally -- I've never lived in a state long enough to work my way into such a position and I'm thrilled with my playoff schedule.

In Texas, it's a 3-year gig. So if you get selected to work at State for Boys or Girls, you get to work it for 3 years.

And to say that someone should only work one state final is also IMO not very practical. Then you are going to have a bunch of people that either are not ready, or never were truly qualified in the first place to work games.

[/B][/QUOTE]If there was a rule that restricted an official to working one state final in Illinois for, say, every ten years, how would that not be practical? You're talking about 6 officials per year(boys and girls finals) x ten years = 60 0fficials. I haveta believe that Illinois has got way more than 60 officials who are already eminently qualified to work a high school final.

in our state, kentucky, we have two state tourney's for the boys and 2 for the girls.. the first is an all "a" school tourney, which is for the smaller schools and it is said that the small schools vote on who they want to ref no matter how many times they have been there, so it is mainly a popularity contest or a who you know thing with this tourney....
as for our major sweet 16 tourney...we have 16 regions and all the regions have there top officials from the ratings from coaches/assignors combined....usually the #1 officials get to go to the state tourney no matter how many times they have been, no limitations...also there are some "at large" bids that are covered by the kentucky assignor of officials, so he can get the people that he wants that maybe didn't finish in the top of their particular regions... i agree that there should be some sort of regulations and that would be great for all officials over the state that are always close to the top but never get there....not much difference in #1-#5 in most regions!!!

If there was a rule that restricted an official to working one state final in Illinois for, say, every ten years, how would that not be practical? You're talking about 6 officials per year(boys and girls finals) x ten years = 60 0fficials. I haveta believe that Illinois has got way more than 60 officials who are already eminently qualified to work a high school final. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's actually more than that -- in Illinois, for example, they play more than one round at state and there's class A and AA. But even so, there are at least 20-30 qualified officials.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser Best? Way too subjective, IMO. States should have a pool of people who they would feel confident in sending to the state tournament and spread the wealth. Who said you would put officials with no experience in games of that magnitude? You'd still have to "work your way up the ladder" before going to state. You'd still have to work regionals, sectionals, substates, and all those preliminary rounds that states have. I think I counted 622 officials in my state that were "playoff eligible." 48 officials here work the state tournament every season. No reason that you couldn't pick out a different batch of 48 every season. But the problem is this -- it takes manpower and effort to identify those people who would do well in the state tournament and it's much easier to just send somebody again, and again, and again. And people like the OP may be good enough to work, but don't. I'm not complaining personally -- I've never lived in a state long enough to work my way into such a position and I'm thrilled with my playoff schedule.

I'm with you Rich! We all do have to "work our way up"...but for some of us, it's a case of up and down....up and down. Over the 30+ years of working here in Wisconsin, many of my generation have been lucky to get to the "dance" once....some have been there twice. It's somewhat an "unwritten" rule that two years in a row at STATE....you sit the next year and are eligible again the following, provided you continue to meet the tournament selection criteria. Point being, we can go through all the hoops... yet still never get that chance of working a state tourney due to "strictly numbers". You know the routine. Must have a minimum of 16 varsity assignments, score 90+ on NFHS Test 1 & 2, have the appropriate level classification (L5/Master), 5 or 6 point average in Coach's evaluation. Once you meet these, then you progress through the Regionals...Sectionals....and "hopefully" a State invitation. However, many of us reach the Sectional finals...year after year....don't get a state bid and, like the 'ol Cub fan that I am....I wait till next year! (Truth be told...we don't get any younger and the reality is that at some point it's time to move over and applaud our younger colleagues supporting their dreams of getting the "big gig"). Hey....with all the rumblings about 3-whistle coming to Wisconsin....I might be able to still have a chance among you "kids"...I still believe EXPERIENCE comes in handy in the crunch!

Long disertation....but I am thrilled, like you Rich, at the assignments I continue to receive. For me, it's an afformation and recognition of the hardwork my partners and I continue to do.

Congratulations Rich...and all of the other hardworking officials who have "earned" their way into the playoff season!

wl

[Edited by imaref on Feb 23rd, 2005 at 04:41 PM]

In Iowa, I believe all playoff assignments are made totally on coaches ratings and recommendations. Local associations don't have a thing to say about it, which I personally think is a bad thing. A lot of guys in my area don't even belong to an association. You can get all of your games yourself dealing with league commissioners or directly with the AD in smaller schools. I think if you get selected to go to state one year, you are automatically invited back the next year unless you really screw up. After that, I think you have to sit out a year or two before you can return, but I am not positive about that. I am talking strictly about the state tournaments, one for girls and one for boys, 4 classes each. I think you can work sub state and district games for as many years in a row as you like as long as you can get them.

I did not say you could not find officials. I think you would not have always "quality" officials working deep in the playoffs. In our state finals there are 12 officials that work the state finals for each Class. I just think you would lose officials to college and other levels if you just gave them one change.

Look, this is my opinion. It does not mean it would not work. I just think officials should be rewarded for doing a good job at the HS level. We have a basic rule of 3 and out. It is not put in stone and there was an official that worked his fourth (conflicts with a school limited his 3rd trip).

Peace