I would like to know everyone's opinion on the visual count time length. I have seen officials that count extremely slow in the back court but normal during a throw-in or closely guarded. There are also officials that count extremely slow at all times. I worked on getting my count perfectly timed with a second and it showed in the end of a couple of games where I whistled a ten second violation and 10.5 had come off the clock. My problem is that as a crew we should have a consistent count between the three of us. Lately I've slowed my count down because more experienced officials where counting slower. If the rule is ten seconds should we not be working to call a violation in 10-11 seconds? When I've received game film from past games my count looks extremely fast but I know that it is very close to being accurate.

Any suggestions or should I just continue counting at my current pace?

Personally, I'm on the same pace as you, as is my crew.

Ditto here. I feel the if you're going to err, it's much better to do so on the long side. It's kinda hard to defend a 10 second violation when only 8 have run off the clock.....

I'm not sure that is what Tony said. I would believe that he counts 10 seconds as 10 seconds.

I do. and 5 as 5. I want to reward the defense. Keeping someone in the back-court for 10 seconds isn't necessarily easy. Maintaining closely guarded for 5 seconds isn't easy unless the offense isn't paying attention. Reward the defense for a job well done.

I agree with cford, I see many officials count slow enough that a 10 second count would take 15 seconds. And I've seen throw-in violations called when it seemed like 3 seconds. Both of those are unacceptable to me. 10 is 10. 5 is 5. We should try our best to work with the correct values and make the appropriate speed of arm wags. Your partners should too.

I try to get my counts as accurate as possible. I expect my partners to do the same.

Z

Me too. It paid off earlier this season -- I called a 10 second violation and the coach started complaining to my partner. Since the violation happened right after a timeout, my partner got the time from the scorer and it was very apparent to the coach, then, that 11 seconds had come off the clock.

While unorthodox, this tactic did quiet the coach down for most of the rest of the game.

--Rich

Counting slower is defiantly better the counting fast. I was told about a situation that happened earlier this year. Team A calls a time out. After the time out they inbound the ball in the backcourt. The official calls a ten-second violation. Teams A's scorekeeper had written down how much time was on the clock when the time out was called. Only eight seconds had come off the clock. OUCH! Coach wasn't too happy about that. He tried to give some excuse that the count starts before the clock but the coach didn't buy it.

count
 

I agree that it is important to get the counts as close to perfect as can be (and that it is *much* better to call the 10-second violation after 11 seconds than after 9 seconds).

A practical tip (among many): A couple of years ago, I decided that I should be testing my counts and I started counting with the microwave as it counts down. I realized that the *real* count is faster than I thought it was. Now, when I test myself with the microwave - which I do regularly, if not daily - I'm pretty consistent. A couple of years of practice counting will help. (For those of you with families, warn the household occupants not to get too close to you in the kitchen so they don't get whacked with the visible count!).

So let's say Team A calls a time-out again and Team B notices that 12 seconds went off the clock and the official didn't call a 10-second violation. You aren't any better off in that situation for having counted slow as you are if you the official counted too fast. Each official should just try to be as accurate as possible.

Z

A technique I use to become as accurate with my counts as possible is to use the microwave timer. Just sit in front of the microwave and do your count along with the timer. At the very least you get an idea how fast you need to be or how much slower you need to go.

I also watch the clock briefly if I can to get an idea where I am in my count. I started doing this also when I started working college games to make sure the shot clock started properly. I really only do this when there is no pressure on the ball and I have a good angle at the clock from where I am standing.

Peace

Damn, no wonder oil is $45+ a bbl with all you people cranking up the 1100W microwave to check your counts.

Doesn't anybody own a watch with a second hand anymore???!!!

I agree completely on accuracy - my 10 second count is consistently between 10 and 11 seconds.

In the scenario you propose, remember that the clock starts immediately as soon as the inbound pass is touched, while the 10 second count doesn't start until team (player) control is established. The majority of the time these occur simultaneously, but not always. It's not all that uncommon - I had it happen several times in a JV boys game last night. Defense was pressuring the inbound & tipped the inbound pass - I chop in the clock immediately. Players then scramble for the ball for several seconds before inbounding team finally gains control - only then did I start the 10-count.

The reality is that most newer officials count too quickly. I was working with a newer official a couple weeks ago & noticed his count was pretty quick. At half time I had him do a 10-count while using my watch to time it - turned out his 10-count was 7.5 seconds. He consciously slowed down it a little in the 2nd half & it was much better.

Arm Wags
 

I get my count going when the possession changes, rebounds, throwins, etc. AND I try to grab the clock. If my arm wags are at 8 and the clock shows 10 seconds have elapsed, i'll blow the violation. When I don't grab the clock, I am going with my arm wags. My counts are probably a little slow.

Mulk

I do not actually turn on the oven part of the microwave, just the timer. Many microwaves have a timer that can be used for purposes other than cooking in the microwave. I do not need to cook anything. It was a technique I leaved from this site I believe. Someone suggested it and I do this every now and then. Usually do this in the off season.

Peace

Re: Arm Wags
 

And if I'm a coach who is watching and counting your arm "wags" I'm going to be slightly more than a little pi$$ed when you count 8 and call a 10-second violation.

Do you swing your arms 4 times on a five-second closely guarded call, too?

:(

Re: Re: Arm Wags
 

I'm with you Rich, he's gonna be mad if he gets discounted on arm swings. But why in the world would he be watching your arm swings when his team can't get the ball across half-court? I suppose he could be watching on an inbound play or closely guarded situation.

I actually *do* turn on the oven, but not for the purpose of practicing my counts! I turn on the oven to ... heat up food, including my daily morning oatmeal (yum!). But, since the oven is going, I might as well get a second use (practicing counts) out of it!

That reminds me of the stories of how the Native Americans made sure to use all the parts of a buffalo one they made a kill.

I'm with almost everyone else in that a slow count is better than a fast one. I work on my count in lower level games. When there is not pressure, keep an eye on the clock while a player brings the ball up. It worked well for me.

I've seen this happen, the official said his count only reached nine, so he reset the clock as if only 9 seconds had elapsed. A little bit unorthodox, and it showed that this official was quite good at thinking on his feet. Although it's not what I would've done, it was pretty cool.

I've seen this happen, the official said his count only reached nine, so he reset the clock as if only 9 seconds had elapsed. A little bit unorthodox, and it showed that this official was quite good at thinking on his feet. Although it's not what I would've done, it was pretty cool. [/B][/QUOTE]Unfortunately, the rules don't allow the official to use that procedure. He was wrong.

The direction is given in casebook play 5.10.1SitC--<i>"If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds".</i>

Iow, uncool.

Unfortunately, the rules don't allow the official to use that procedure. He was wrong.

The direction is given in casebook play 5.10.1SitC--<i>"If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds".</i>

Iow, uncool. [/B][/QUOTE]

As I said, it's not what I would've done, I would've first explained to the coach that the game clock starts on the touch, and the 10 second count starts when backcourt control is established. That would probably eat up one second, and then explain the second worth of lag-time for the timer. So in the end, 11 off the clock = 9 for the 10 second count.

Re: Re: Arm Wags
 

Rich,

A team gets 10 seconds to get the ball across and if I can use the clock for an accurate 10, then I am going to use it. If I can't grab the clock then they will get 10 arm wags. I don't kmow many coaches that are making major decisions on the number of arm wags that I have made. If the coach gets pissed, then he'll just have to get pissed.

I have not incorporated the clock on my closely guarded
counts. I'm not that good.

Mulk

Re: Re: Re: Arm Wags
 

As long as you know you're not doing it the right way....

as long as you can keep those arm wag counting coaches happy..

10 is best, but it would be better to have 12 than to have 8.

Similarly, go for 5 - otherwise 6 is better than 4.

I found that I've worked the clock & shot clock for so long that my counts are pretty accurate (when working the shot clock, I can actually count it down in my head from 30/35 to 0). Just concentrate a bit more on the clock the next time you watch a game on TV - you might be surprised at how long/short certain things take.

I practice all the time with the microwave timer.

I use 5 or 10 full arm swings chest to full extension and back to chest, so all my counts are 5 and a half and 10 and a half.

It seems to work because every time I've had a 5 or 10 second violation on tape it has always been right on the second to slightly beyond.

What ever method you use to practice a count, be aware that the pace and intensity of a game will probably be a little higher than watching oatmeal cook. I seen people who's count vary with the intensity of the action.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Feb 10th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

Cruise Control
 

That is why you need cruise control during sex while driving......

That's something I also wanted to emphasize. Other than being that ref, there's nothing worse than watching a rather good official whose count for one second is about 1 second long, but whose count gets shortened to about half a second for the fifth second.