I'm hoping this will run to 10 pages, things are getting kinda tame (lame?) around here!

Exactly what is the definition of "facing", as in, "...facing the opponent" when establishing legal guarding position? Here's the only way I can make this question make sense. Here stand two players, A and B. They are "facing" each other, nose to nose, chest to chest, belly to belly and so forth. Now A rotates 90 degrees so that her left ear is toward B's nose, her left shoulder is toward B's chest, her left hip is toward B's torso. Obviously, A is no longer facing B. But here's the $64,000 question: Is B facing A? B's face and front plane are toward A's body, but not toward A's front plane. So is B facing A?

A doesn't have to be facing B in order for B to be facing A. Does she?

Well, see that's the question.

If they don't have to both be facing, then why is it not legal guarding position when B is running alongside a dribbling A? I always thought this was legal guarding position, but I had a very authoritative vet tell me otherwise. So after several minutes of arguing, I gave up, and brought the discussion here.

Running alongside? Does B have her torsoe facing A while she's running alongside of her? Is she running sideways?

Well, she did when she was establishing.

Sounds like she lost it if she has to turn and run. Did head and torso get past the defender, even momentarily?

No, it was a dribble from bc to fc, along the sideline, defender comes across, does a jumpstop sideways to dribbler, and then scootches along sideways, like a crab, totally keeping up, maybe even a half-step ahead, but not stepping into dribbler's straight-ahead path. This vet that I was talking to said that wasn't legal guarding position, because they weren't facing each other. What am I missing.

Not sure. I'd say because she was never in the path of the dribbler, not because they weren't facing each other. Otherwise, you'll rarely find a post defender with LGP by this guy's definition.

Don't have to be in the path to establish lgp. Both feet on the floor and facing are the only criteria.

Really like to stir the poop, eh Juulie?

By rule, the vet was wrong. To establish initial LGP, defender has to have both feet on the floor & be facing the offensive player. The rule says only what the defender must do - the physical orientation of the offensive player with respect to the defender is irrelevant. Once LGP is established, the defender may move as necessary, including laterally to maintain it.

Facing is easy, the term that NEEDS to be defined is PATH, as the week long closely guarded war...er...thread will attest.:D

Yea, but it's not working!!

I think it's not working b/c the answer seems pretty clear. I don't need to be facing you in order for you to be facing me. Not a whole lot to stir, IMHO

PC or not
http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...4&pagenumber=1

This is a germane thread. I think if you answer one you'll answer the other. I'm waiting for the big/old/experienced/learned/burned out dogs to answer.:)

Let me see if I can help out
 

Let me see if I can stir the pot a bit!

If B1 is facing the basket with his back to A1 and A1 runs into the back of B1 with the ball, is it a PC? B1 did not have LGP on A1? Does that matter for a PC?

I'd call a PC foul, myself.

Re: Let me see if I can help out
 

You would be correct to call a player control foul on A1, because even though B1 did not have a legal guarding postion against A1, but he had set a legal legal screen against A1.

MTD, Sr.

Not really, PC or not was about INCIDENTAL CONTACT.

The question is does the rule book use "path" literally or logically.

Literally means straight-line whatever direction, this is what caused the problems in the closely guarded thread because it would require B to "defend" a boundary to maintain "guarding" if A turned back toward the division line.

Logically means between A and their basket as well as straight-line.

I like logic.:D

MTD,
Can a player set a legal screen with a foot on the out of bounds line?

Re: Re: Let me see if I can help out
 

When did it become absolutely illegal by definition if there's contact between the screener and the screenee?

Did a BJV game last night. Point guard for A was all right. The defender stayed on his right hand so he was not in front. Is this LGP?

Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I can help out
 

You correct that the contact between the screener and screenee (I hoped we spelled that word correctly) is only a foul if two things occur: 1) The screener is displaced. AND 2) The screenee goes through the screen. Having said that, I cannot remember the last time that a screenee who was moving at top speed was able to stop isntantly upon contact with the screener.

MTD, Sr.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let me see if I can help out
 

OK, but I'm not sure if I agree that a dribbler coming down the lane is always moving at top speed. Could be, but not always.

In any event, why is this screening action? Isn't the dribbler responsible for *not* charging into opponents, outside of any screening principles? He does under ncaa.

It ain't a "screening" action and never was. It doesn't meet the definition of a "screen" under rule 4-39-1. B1 isn't trying to delay or prevent an opponent from reaching a desired position, as the definition says. B1 just picked out a spot and is legally standing there. The action does meet the restriction in R10-6-2 that says "a dribbler shall not charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path....unless the space is such as to to provide a reasonable chance for him or her to go through without contact". That's the reason it's a PC foul.

OK, you can take it for a while.

We'll get this thing up to 10 pages soon enough!

:)

Once Mark comes back down from his attic that is.

JR:

I hope your above quoted post was a joke. Because you proved my point for me. R4-S39-A1 and R10-S6-A2 go hand-in-hand in this play in fact you have to use both rules to make the call. B1 has a legal postion on the court. If A1 wants to get to a spot on the court that is on the other side of B1 he has to go around B1 not through him. That means that B1 is in a screening position.

MTD, Sr.

If B1 is facing the basket with his back to A1 and A1 runs into the back of B1 with the ball, is it a PC? B1 did not have LGP on A1? Does that matter for a PC?

I'd call a PC foul, myself.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I hope your above quoted post was a joke. Because you proved my point for me. R4-S39-A1 and R10-S6-A2 go hand-in-hand in this play in fact you have to use both rules to make the call. B1 has a legal postion on the court. If A1 wants to get to a spot on the court that is on the other side of B1 he has to go around B1 not through him. That means that B1 is in a screening position.

[/B][/QUOTE]My above quoted posts cited actual rules, not one of MTD Sr. little flights of fantasy. If B1 has his back turned and doesn't know that a dribbler is coming up behind him, then B1 is <b>not</b> setting a screen under the definition of a "screen" in R4-39-1. There is nowayinhell that B1 can be said to be trying to "delay or prevent" anything. Howintheck can he be if he don't know that the dribbler is behind him? B1 is just legally standing on his own l'il part of the floor, and if the dribbler runs into him, it's a PC foul under 10-6-2. You can bafflegab from here to next week with your goofy interpretations, but you ain't gonna change those facts.

I hope your above quoted post was a joke. Because you proved my point for me. R4-S39-A1 and R10-S6-A2 go hand-in-hand in this play in fact you have to use both rules to make the call. B1 has a legal postion on the court. If A1 wants to get to a spot on the court that is on the other side of B1 he has to go around B1 not through him. That means that B1 is in a screening position.

[/B][/QUOTE]My above quoted posts cited actual rules, not one of MTD Sr. little flights of fantasy. If B1 has his back turned and doesn't know that a dribbler is coming up behind him, then B1 is <b>not</b> setting a screen under the definition of a "screen" in R4-39-1. There is nowayinhell that B1 can be said to be trying to "delay or prevent" anything. Howintheck can he be if he don't know that the dribbler is behind him? B1 is just legally standing on his own l'il part of the floor, and if the dribbler runs into him, it's a PC foul under 10-6-2. You can bafflegab from here to next week with your goofy interpretations, but you ain't gonna change those facts. [/B][/QUOTE]



Bafflegab??!! ROFLMAO

MTD, Sr.

That's it???!!!!

Very disappointing.

I want to know what the heck is bafflegab?

MTD, Sr.

Any post made by you about qualifies.

;)

That's cold.

MTD, Sr.

Yeah I know, sorry. But I felt obligated to push this thread to at least 3 pages, and here we are.

Let's just declare success & leave it at that, OK?

Yeah, but Juulie is shooting for 10 pages. Maybe I should start spouting some bafflegab.

MTD, Sr.

Some from you, a little from Nevada and a sprinkling from each of the lawyers will get us to 20 pages, easy.

Especially if we keep qouting each other.

MTD, Sr.

I wanted 10 pages on topic. I guess my friend was not as close to base as he thought, and for once I was right! Now THAT's a weird feeling!

From Dictionary.com:

"bafflegab"- baf-fle-gab
n. Slang
- gobbledygook

If you aren't sure of that one:
"gobbledygook"- gob-ble-dy-gook
1) unclear, wordy jargon
2) <b>incomprehensible or pompous jargon specialists</b>

You now know.

A bit like a multipage thread on 0 & 00

Juulie:

To answer your original question as well as lengthen this thread: Facing an opponent means that the player who is supposed to do the facing is facing his opponent but his opponenet does not have to be facing him.

MTD, Sr.

If you're looking a telephone pole with your body turned towards it, how can you tell if the telephone pole is facing you? (Yes, it's a silly question but it proves the point). You can't because it doesn't matter. Facing is done by one player.

If that were not the case, all a player would have to do is turn their back to the defender and then run over then (since they wouldn't have LGP). Of course, we know that is not the case.

Now if B is running along side A, I doubt they'll keep up with A for long if they're also facing A. Most people aren't that fast with a side step. If they're truly running side-by-side, they're probably not facing the dribbler.