A1 is fronted by B1 in the post. A2 makes a successful entry pass and A1 pivots toward the basket (B1 still has legal guarding position). As A1 begins his shot, B2 comes in to attempt a block. A1 attempts to avoid the block by pivoting back. The back of A1's head directly hits B1 square in the face, knocking him down. Again, B1 has LGP. Player control, inadvertant contact, no call? What would you have?

Incidental contact.

Pretty sure that A1 didn't use his head to move B1 or to gain a more advantageous position, as would happen with a shoulder or forearm to A1's midsection.

No call from me.

I may have blown this one. I went with a player control. Mainly because the contact was severe. The sound was awful (from the heads hitting) and I did not want a situation where a kid went down hurt and there was no whistle. Needless to say, the coach of A1 did not like the call.

Player control foul. You said it yourself that B1 had a legal guarding position against A1 and A1's contact with B1 knocked B1 down.

MTD, Sr.

You may or may not have blown it. It's a judgment call. But just because the contact is severe does not mean it wasn't incidental. Check the definition below, as the <B>boldface</b> text covers your concern while the <U>underlined</U> covers Mark's concern.

4-27-2
...contact which may result when opponents are in <U>equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements,</U> should not be considered illegal, <B>even though the contact may be severe.</b>

To me, your play is the classic example of severe contact that is incidental. The fact that B1 had LGP does not mean that any contactg created by A1 is a PC foul, even severe contact.

No call from me.

So, if A1 turns, stomps on B1's ingrown toenail, and B1 falls to the floor in agony, it's a PC foul on A1? B1 had LGP and A1's contact caused B1 to hit the floor. Gotta be a PC, right? :D

A player falling to the floor is a poor criteria for calling a foul, Mark. What if he just took the knock to the head but he stays on his feet? What if, in the original play, he flopped? Poor criteria, Mark.

Tony:

We aren't talking about two players going after a ball from equally advantageous positions, and the fact that the contact between A1 and B1 was severe. B1 had a legal guarding position against A1. A1 pivoted to avoid being guarded by B2 and knocked B1. That is a foul by A1.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Why are we writing about basketball when the Super Bowl is on television. LOL

No, we aren't. And the portion of the rule that I quoted above is not addressing a loose ball situation. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word "OR."

Allow me to breakdown 4-27-2 for you.

1- Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball,

<B>OR</B>

2- Contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements,

should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

C'mon Mark, you're smarter than that. You know full well that this rule is addressing two DIFFERENT situations that are possible. At least, I hope you're smarter than that.

I do not want to know why you inspect everyone's toenails before the game to know which players have ingrown toenails. Yuck.

I agree with what you have said Tony, but re-read the original play. A1 is being double-teamed by B1 and B2. B1 and B2 had legal guarding positions against A1. A1 moved to avoid B2 and knocked down B1; that type of contact is not incidental contact. The contact between A1 and B1 was not incidental contact that was the result of two players being in equally advantageous positions. I am not concerned about how severe the contact is, just the fact the A1's contact with B1 displaced B1 from his legal guarding position.

MTD, Sr.

Tony:

I am going to ignore the ingrown tail situation. The fact that the contact between A1 and B1 was with their heads is not important. A1's contact displaced B1 from his legal guarding position. It would not matter if A1's head hit B1 in the chest, if the contact knocks B1 down, then A1 has committed a foul.

MTD, Sr.

I am going to ignore the ingrown <font color = red>tail</font> situation.

[/B][/QUOTE]Ingrown <b>tail</b>?

Sounds painful. Is there a cure for that?

Mark, you agree with what I say but you'd call a foul? That makes no sense. Read the post. "...The back of A1's head directly hits B1 square in the face..." B is not displaced. He chooses to fall down when there's contact to his faced. That's a foul? Not if it's my call.

Mark, if you call everything in a game that you advocate calling here on this board, then your games must have a hundred fouls and last for three hours, with only 3 players from each team on the floor at game's end. :D

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 6th, 2005 at 10:57 PM]

Certainly its a foul. The contact was not incidental. A1 was moving to avoid B2 and made contact with B1 who had a legal guarding position against A1. It is an obvious case of A1 invading B1's cylinder of verticality ;-).

MTD, Sr.

Got news for you, Mark. All contact is created by someone moving. it makes no difference why he was moving.

Let us know the next time you have contact without someone moving. ;)

I've got a foul. They were not in equally favorable positions. B1 had A1's desired path blocked. B1's contact gave B1 an advantage.

When the contact occurred, they were in equally favorable positions. The path is blocked only if A1 moves in that direction, not just because he bobs his head.

If you think not, then please describe to me, a situation where to players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs.

And remember that we aren't talking about a loose ball situation.

First, the original post never said anything about B1 chosing to fall down. It said that the contact knocked him down. See post below.

"The back of A1's head directly hits B1 square in the face, knocking him down. "

Second, A1 did not just "bob his head". Using your own criteria, B1 did block the path because A1 moved "in that direction". He did this when he pivoted.

"As A1 begins his shot, B2 comes in to attempt a block. A1 attempts to avoid the block by pivoting back."

What would you call if A1 pivots and lowers his shoulder into B1? PC? If so, then why not call PC when A1 bangs his head into B1? He pivoted into him. The only difference is that the contact was on the head and not the chest. Either way, its a foul. Player was displaced.

My call, PC, going other way!

Sorry guys but I'm not calling a foul on anyone when the only contact is two players banging heads. It could just as easily have been the offensive player who fell when the contact occurred, or both of them. Do you still call a PC foul on A1?

What if the defender doesn't fall down? Do you still make the same call?

I'm still waiting for one of you who supports a PC foul in this sitch to expalin a situation where two players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs. Because for me, this is it. This is incidental contact.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Look, I know I'm just a coach/fan, and you're not reffing to keep me happy, but I gotta tell ya, whether the call is for or against me, I wouldn't complain if a foul is called in this situation.

Its almost like...and I cringe as I type this...its a game management tool.

Alright, I'm thinking the spirit of 'displacement' isn't intended for a player going to the floor after incidental contact whether in LGP or not.

This weekend I had A1 with the ball and B1 had LGP very tight to A1. A1 drops his left foot back and cross over dribbles to the left of B1. B1 catches an elbow to the chin and drops not from displacement, but 'cuz it looked like he bit his tongue and it hurt really bad.

A1, B1 and I were all alone out in the middle of the floor, I ruled it as incidental contact, the play went on and not a coach or parent hollered about it.

In the sitch which started this thread, if A bonked heads with B in a normal movement and B goes straight down without displacement, I got nothing. If he swings his head around like an overly aggressive elbowing move and knocks B out of place, I have a PC.

Am I too far off here?

I think so
 

As I read the play, B1 had legal guarding position. A1 moved into him - he "pivoted back" is what the original post said. B1 is entitled to his spot on the floor. Nothing A1 does can dislodge him from that position. If in the opinion of the official the player flopped, then I'd have a no call. However, A1 gained an advantage from the contact. B1 went to the floor. Now we have a 5 and 4 situation. Definite advantage for the offense. Now, I'm not saying every time a player goes to the floor that we have to have a foul. It depends on the situation. What caused him to fall? He's own clumsiness, then I have nothing. Did he flop? Still have nothing, unless I've warned him about this tactic, and then maybe I'll T'm up.

They way I interpreted the play, B1 went down due to the pain and it was not incidental contact, because A1 moved into him initiating the aforementioned contact (that's for all you lawyer types out there!).

Nope, you're dead on, Mike. Know why? Because <b>you</b> judged that the contact was incidental!! That's all she wrote right there, iow.

Any personal foul involves <b>illegal</b> contact. It is up to the calling official to decide whether the contact he's judging is "illegal" or not. You can argue these plays from here to eternity, but that's still the bottom line.

I can buy that.
 

I can agree with that. But I could also agree with the official who called a player control for the same reason. He did not deem it incidental.

Re: I can buy that.
 

Nope, you're dead on, Mike. Know why? Because <b>you</b> judged that the contact was incidental!! That's all she wrote right there, iow.

Any personal foul involves <b>illegal</b> contact. It is up to the calling official to decide whether the contact he's judging is "illegal" or not. You can argue these plays from here to eternity, but that's still the bottom line. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can agree with that. But I could also agree with the official who called a player control for the same reason. He did not deem it incidental.
[/B][/QUOTE]Exactly. That was my point.

If B1 flopped, due to the nature of the contact, I would have come up with blocking... I had something similar to this happen to me in a recent game. I am about 5'11" and 210, the same size as "A1" on the court, and a kid about 4' mabye 4'5" (a little guy and dint weigh much), ran upto but attempted to stop infront of A1 who had LGP but there was almost no contact. I could have swore that A1 had been hit by a bullet in a hollywood movie, this kid acted better than Jerry Orbach. I come up with a foul and call blocking. As I report it the coach asks me why and tells me there is no way that he moved. I simply responded that "it was the block or a technical for flopping, you can pick, lets not have it happen again." Immediately the coach pulls the player and has a talk to him about flopping.

Later that game I had two players, a post and a player dribbling to the basket. Anyhow, they both left the floor at the same time and the "Blocker" jumped perpindicular to the dribbler. He made no forward movment in filght to the dribbler, and they collided with some force. They left at the same time so I had a 'no call.' Any advice? Should that have been a block all the way? I took it as they both were entitled to the space where they collided...

Take Care,

Kenny

I've enjoyed the debate. From my original post, let me be clear that there was no "flop." To add just a bit more info, as B1 pivots away from A2 defender, he was making, in my judgment, a head fake. The motion from the head fake caused the contact to A1 who was in LGP.

i would like to know what those that say this is not a foul, would have said to the coach had he stated " it says in the rules book that everyone is entitled to a position on the floor. my player obtained that position legally, and was removed illegally!" ? and to whomever says that player "A" only hit him in the head, he then chose to fall down, that may be one of the poorest excuses for justifying not calling that foul anyone could give.

It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered incidental in that rule book too.;)

"removed illegally" is the key here I believe. Incidental isn't illegal as far as I know...

If the physical contact was judged to be "incidental" and the player was not "displaced" by force like a traditional charge, shove, or pushing foul, but recoiled due to the incidental contact, then I'm letting it go. I see no "illegal removal" as the contact is judged to be incidental.

How many times have you seen a player get clipped by an elbow or make head contact during the normal course of play in HS or NCAA and no call is made?

How about when rebounder B1 comes down with the ball under his chin and his elbows are out and makes elbow contact with A2 on the way down? A2 takes a step back and grabs his beak or recoils, is there a foul there? I say no it's incidental even though A2 is entitled to his floor space and moved out of it.

But if B1 comes down and is swinging hard and does the same thing, I have PC on him.

It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in
 

how can you say this contact was incidental? everytime a player slaps for the ball but hits the arm, do you call this incidental? he didnt mean to foul he went for the ball.incidental may happen when diving for a loose ball, going around a screen, jump balls, or something like this. NOT trying to avoid a defender and knocking the opponent upside the head.

Re: It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in
 

Someone REALLY needs to read 4-27 MUCH, more closely.;)

Re: It also says that contact is expected and contact that is severe may be considered in
 

By definition of "incidental".

No I wouldn't call it incidental. The act of "slapping" for a ball is unto itself an act of "intention". He was "intending" to "slap" for the ball and it wasn't an "incidental" act on his part.

I would agree in your saying, "NOT trying to avoid a defender" would be cause for a foul. If he WAS trying to avoid the defender legitimately in my mind - and "incidental contact" occurs without advantage/disadvantage I'm letting it go.

Now "incidental contact" doesn't mean he can "try" to avoid the defender and still be allowed to plow through him, but if the defender has his beak stuck way in there and he gets clipped that's on him.

If A1 throws a forearm into B2's grill, even though he is "TRYING to avoid the defender" I got PC.

What I find humorous is, there are guys I officiated in football who will play and hit hard every play with an injury and never complain, but get them onto a basketball court and they become Oscar winning actors. I've smiled at a couple of them and told them to knock it off. Seems to clean up the overall play as well.

In the original play, what if on the reverse pivot it was a shoulder to the chest of the defender, rather than a bump of the heads, with the same result? I think most would agree its a PC. Why should the head be any different?

If they banged arms and one kid fell down, would you call a foul? Legs?

How many times have you ever called a foul when two kids banged heads?

And more importantly, what's the signal for that? :)

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. A player using his shoulder or body to barrel over a player is a completely different play. We aren't talking about a player who's trying to headbutt a defender to get by him.

BTW, I'm still waiting for some to describe to me, a situation where two players would be in equally favorable postions and incidental contact occurs. Because that's exactly what we have here. So please, someone give me a play that this occurs in that's not similiar in nature and principle to this play.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Feb 8th, 2005 at 09:08 AM]

A1 goes to the basket jumps towards the goal, but slightly diagonally. B1 in front of the basket jumps straight up within their vertical plane from a spot with LGP.

No arms, shoulders, or heads, just a bump as A1 slides by to release the shot. No displacement or crashing bodies.

Sometimes you will have A1 take a spill on this type of play, but again it is still incidental contact.


You will see the same type of play on the floor when B1, with LGP, slides as A1 dribbles forward and stops to change directions. There will be a bump without displacement, no contact through the defender, no chicken wing by A1, just two players arriving at the same spot without illegal contact hindering either player. This is normally the play where A's coach will be screaming to get B off their player.:D

Thank you!

Agree 100%!

Thank you.

MTD, Sr.