Last week, someone mentioned that in Women's NCAA a blarge (block by one official, charge by another) is handled in a way that allows the officials to get together, decide who has the primary, and then let the primary official make the call. (As opposed to NFHS which is a double foul and A/P). I can't find this in the NCAA manual or mechancis book. Can someone help me out with this?

I found the reference to the men's and I appreciate the forward but I cannot find the specific reference.

If both officials go up with a fist, how does anyone know that one has a block and one has a charge?

When I have a double whistle, I defer to my partner if his whistle came a split second before mine or if we were both calling in the lane and he was lead. Or he defers to me if the play was coming to me, etc.

We try to pregame this (when I have a squared away partner that wants to pregame :) ).

The only way you would know if there was a block/charge conflict is if both officials made preliminary signals after the fist, right?

Does this happen that often?

I had a double whistle tonite as C where I called into the lane. My partner had a call at the same time. I had fist up. He had fist up. I pointed to him to say "your call, baby." He went and made the call. Now it wasnt a block/charge, but no one would have known that even if it had been because one defered to the other. Now, had I seen something on the back side that I think he might not have seen, I might motion him over.

I havent seen many instances where partners would both call fouls AND make signals showing different calls. How common is this? Please share your seasoned wisdom with me, a total newbie :)

Clark

Because college officials have a real bad habit of not raising their fist, but rather going directly to the block or charge signal.

That's how it happens.

Saw one a few weeks back on television. Women's game. Drive to the basket, collision, C bounding the hips, L coming out from the baseline with the fist, neither looking at each other. Ended up being a charge, and commentators never mentioned it.

Gotcha.

Is that the approved college mechanic?

Sounds like a good argument for the use of the fist. :)

Clark

That's the "approved mechanic" at all levels when there is a double whistle. The officials should have pre-gamed a way to handle double whistles. If not, you simply come together, determine who had what adn who should make the call. And yes, that's why a fist should always be raised.

But if you get two different prelims, it's a double.

Folks, I am still looking for the reference in the Women's game about how to handle a "BLARGE". Granted, none of us ever want one but if they happen it helps to know the proper ruling. In NFHS and 2A Men's, it is a double foul but some of you mentioned that 2A Womens goes to the primary. I can not find a reference to that.

chayce, it's on the website that I linked. I realize it's a lot of material but it's there. But if you really want it, you'll just have to dig for it.

I don't believe you can call both a charge and a block at the same time. It's the same for the NFHS, whoever's primary the play was in is who has the call, the other official has to eat the call.

Rule 6-3.1 Thanks BktBallRef; it took some digging but I finally did find it. It was tucked away in a memorandum date 2001!

Yoou might wanna check out NFHS case book play 4.19.7SitC. NCAA mens handles it the same way. That might make you into a believer. You're wrong on this one.

TJones1. NFHS is a double foul. You call a double foul and go to the AP. Also, if the ball goes in, you count it. We all hope we go our whole careers and never see one of these happen. I saw a blarge in a game last week and it was kicked!!

Better have a brass pair to make this call. :) While this could happen, probably unlikely.

Yes, I know this can happen. But it shouldn't, this is something that you should pre-game.

No, you'd better have a brass pair if you only call one of them. You'll need both of 'em when you explain to the coach that you called a foul on his opponent, but you've changed your mind.

You can pre-game it all you want to, but double whistels are still going to happen.

Yes I know double whistles are going to occur. But if you have them, you shouldn't be quick to the trigger by signaling a call. That was my point...maybe I off the mark!? :) But, it'd be the first time this year... LOL :D

1) This thread is less than 24 hours old and it is already two pages long and I have yet to make a post in the thread.

2) tjones1: You go to the head of the class for your observation that you cannot have both a block and a charge on the same play.

MTD, Sr.

tjones, MTD disagrees with the NFHS Case Book play that states that this play is not a double foul. He thinks the NFHS is wrong. :(

Unfortunately for him, this is a double foul, whether he likes it or not.

And he knows that. ;)

I don't want to be picky but I will anyway :D

MTD, he said call a block and charge at the same time. You said have a block and charge at the same time. While I can agree that you probably can't have a block & charge at the same time it can be called at the same time. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but this became a big deal when it happened during a college game. In this atmosphere:

1. Hearing a double whistle can be hard
2. Selling the call immediately can be very important
3. Huge egos are involved
4. Mechanics are required, most of the time, to get you there and then you can do whatever once you have the big schedule

I also want to point out that this can often times be avoided if we are mechanically sound and really work at the art of 3-man (person). It happens too many times in a clearly defined primary (not in the middle of the paint). For instance if I'm at the C on a play and there is a crash in my primary I want to be able to go straight to my "mechanic" :) If the same play happens and I'm at the Lead, IF (and I mean IF) I have a whistle I will have a fist and my eyes will immediately go to my partner to look for a hammer or mechanic. If I don't do anything at the Lead I can always come in with a delayed whistle if need be. I'm of the strong opinion that a Blarge is often a product of the "let's just get it right" attitude. "Getting it right" should start with the beginning which is do we know the proper 3-man mechanics. Knowing and pregaming the proper mechanics could reduce the risk of this call taking place. Now, will it totally remove this sort of double whistle? No. IMHO, this is one thing the NBA clearly does better than HS and college; look where your partners are not looking.

Tommy,

Agree with TH in that no amount of pre-gaming will prevent blarges. But, please, please share with me your pre-game on this one. We have tried several and we still have the occasional blarge. If you are not having them, or never had one, maybe whatever you are doing is working.

So, pre-game me. Right now.

thanks

Mulk

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace

If you are having the occasional blarges, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary.
[/B][/QUOTE]Are you saying that you never, ever have a blarge in your games?

That is not what I said.

Peace

Rut,

Is there one, and only one, mechanic philosophy on crashes to the basket? Can you share your understanding of the primaries on dribbles to the basket? On passes to the basket? Secondary defenders?

When you have those outlined, can you explain how you get your partners to recognize when the play is not in their primary on wham bam plays that are 1 inch outside of their primaries? We have gone in at halftime and have had 3 different opinions on where the play originated and the spot of the crash. And, when reviewed on tape, none of us were correct on both.

If it is simply a matter of mechanics, (I will ask this question one more time), how can the people doing the games on TV not understand these mechanics?

Mulk

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

Mulkey, JRut said a mouthfull. I will just add something I do. If I have a whistle in my secondary (like JRut said there must be an understanding of the mechanics) it will be a crash, something big or it will be in the middle of the paint. I come up with a hammer and look directly at my partner(s). What upsets me briefly is when I have something in my primary and I go with my "mechanic" only to see someone else with a whistle. This is what I do and it has worked for me. There have been a few times when my partner will have a preliminary and I will have a hammer and a verbal. In a crowded gym we can get away with this almost every time. I haven't had a blarge yet and don't jinx me Jurassic :D

[/B][/QUOTE]

They don't understand these mechanics because of math.

Coaches want them + 50-120 games X an average of $1k per game = they look how they want and do what they want :D

Is this happening to you every game?
 

There is no magic bullet. There is no clear way to tell you how to avoid this situation. The more experienced you are, the more you understand the mechanics, and the easier it is to completely avoid this from happening. I do not go into a lecture during pregames to avoid this call. Usually all I say is let the Center official take the ball to the basket and whoever calls the foul, resort to the primary of the official who made the call. It does not mean you will not have double whistles. But if you know an official had the play all the way, it is very easy to hold off on the whistle and let them make the call. If you see something that is on the border of your primary, you might want to wait a few seconds before signaling. The more you work, the more you understand about the mechanics and when you might have a double whistle.

No Ron. If you have 3 different opinions, someone is not watching off ball coverage. Ron, this is really not that big of a deal. You seem to think that this is a major problem. I have been working 3 Person for 9 years and I have had only one blarge in that period of time during the regular season. I had one happen during the summer but one of my partners was ball watching and not looking off ball. You have to trust your partner on the floor.

Peace

Re: Is this happening to you every game?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]

Re: Re: Is this happening to you every game?
 

Ron,

This must be something that happens to you a lot. :D

I am sorry Ronny; I do not work with a lot of officials that are totally unaware of coverage and primary areas. This state has been working 3 Person for playoff games for 8 years now. It is also require attending clinics to keep our licenses and to get playoff games. It is become more and more rare that officials are not very familiar with 3 person and the procedures. If I do run into an official that is not as skilled in 3 person, usually the blarge is not a major concern.

Peace

Rut,

I am speaking on behalf of our group's experiences mostly. I have had these in my games but none this year. Can't remember one last year. That doesn't mean that I have forgotten how EASY it was to do or that it won't happen tomorrow. I am involved with training in our group and I see this happening more than it should. So, it makes me curious when I hear about a "magic formula" for prevention. People toss around ideas like primaries, trust your partner, mechanics, etc., but I am asking for specifics. I assure you that these specifics that I have requested are for officials improvement, not for a 100 thread Rut/Mulk argument.

You seem to work a lot of games which probably means a lot of different partners. That by itself is a recipe for officials being on different pages. Also, we seem to have more blarges with "stronger/college type" officials than we do with high school level officials. I see this happening on TV and i have to assume that those people are very familiar with mechanics.

Mulk

A lot of big time college officials that you see on TV do know their mechanics, they just choose not to use all of them. I'm also wondering if ego isn't another reason you see the blarge called a little more at the college level? By the way, how come we have to talk about the blarge every year, bringing back horrible memories of Iowa State-Michigan State 5 years ago? I may not sleep tonight.

Ron,

We have a training program that everyone gets the same type of information. I do not run into officials that have a totally different idea on what their responsibility is or what it is not. You are the only one I know that seems to have some issue with why this happens or is constantly afraid of it happening.

Ron, I also watch a lot of basketball on TV and I do not see this happening a lot. I very rarely see officials calling in other officials areas. I really do not know how much more specific I can get. I usually talk about two items in my pregame. I talk about the Center taking the drive all the way to the basket. Then I talk about if we have a double whistle; give the official the call whose primary it is in. No one I work with ever seems to disagree or have another point. Then for some strange reason, I do not have these happening in my games. I work with a lot of partners from State Final officials, to a guy that moved from another state and is in the military with little experience. For some strange reason nothing strange happen. :rolleyes:

Peace

Rut,

Thanks. Was just looking for a little more info that I could share with others. I will mention your C theory and yielding to the primary.

Mulk

Mulk,

There is NO magic formula for prevention. Perhaps you should re-read Tomegun's posts. His thoughts and mechanics for this situation are, IMHO, excellent! In fact, I am going to try and employ them into my thought process from now on. I have not had a BLARGE in 7 years of officiating high school & college ball...and I don't want to have one in the next 7 years either!!

I had this situation in a college game this year right before the halftime horn. Team A in transition...I was L...partner (a D-I official) was C...A1 brings ball down the middle of the paint and creams the defender. I have a whistle and start to come out to give the PC...C comes in from the old hashmark area. We BOTH recognized that there were double-whistles on the play. C comes in and tells me to take it...I go PC. Yes, it was a hair late...but we got the call right. Thank goodness we BOTH had the patience to recognize the situation and hold our prelims. We inbounded & the first half ended. Going off the court I was happy that we held our pre-lims...and was wondering why he thought he had a better look from 30 feet away compared to the 10 feet between me & the play...and I had been setup on the endline waiting for it!

...but that's another thread!

Indy,

I don't think there is a magical formula, either, but something that you are doing is keeping you from having blarges. That secret is what I would like to share with our high school group. By the way, we have some guys doing D1, as well.

Great job on your play! However your play illustrates my point exactly. You were wondering why he thought that he had a better look and he was wondering why you did not let the C take it all the way to the basket. That is why I am asking people like yourself that never have blarges to be specific in the "mechanics" that they use. But even after you agree on a specific mechanic, I still think that sometimes the C will think the ball clearly came from his side and the L will think that the ball came clearly down the middle. We have seen that on tape many times. And, that does not even begin to factor in secondary defenders. And, what about plays that begin in the trail's area?

Another common thing that I see espoused is that this does not happen to good officials. Matter of fact, it happens to our stronger officials. I keep pointing out that it occurs to those guys that we watch on TV and I have to think that they are better than most of the people on this board.

Any event, it was your anticipation of a second whistle and your steadfast refusal to give a prelim that saved you, not your recognition of primaries, diligent offball coverage, distrust of your partner(s), etc. Right????

Read Tomegun's response and have requested more specifics from him as well. Hope he responds.

Mulk

What do you want me to tell you specifically? I think it is an understanding, without ego which is very important, of seeing the whole play. Also, plays that are clearly in someone's primary should not have a double whistle. A delayed whistle if the primary doesn't have one and there really needs to be a whistle. If I know it is a possible area for a double whistle I will have a hammer and find my partner immediately.

I have also had someone pregame the C holding the prelim in double coverage areas. Whatever you do the crew works the best when everyone is comfortable. My definition of comfortable in officiating includes trust and knowing as best I can what the other official is going to do. In possible dual areas it will not hurt to look at your partner so you know where they are looking. Tell me if you want more specifics. I have/get to go home now. :D

Experience, recognition, & understanding are the keys. Tomegun makes great statements again about C holding on your prelims, etc. When I'm R, I say we need a STRONG C to be a good crew...but C also needs to understand that we expect him to look through the players and get the little things we miss...and this might cause double-whistles. So, lay off if it's out of your primary. That being said, we don't want C looking too far out of his primary!

In my situation from above, it was a 2 players in transition coming down the tableside-middle of the court. I had the play the WHOLE way. I can only assume the C had a whistle just to "back me up" if I didn't have one! At halftime, he said he shouldn't have come in so hard...and he understood that his coming in hard made us look bad since that prevented me from really selling the PC and that it was my call the whole way.

Indy and Tomegun,

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Mulk

I saw a BLARGE tonite, boys Varsity, 3 man crew.

Drive into the lane from the perimeter, shot/crash.

Two whistles. C had a call and L had a call. C whistled and very enthusiastically showed a charge. L came out with a block signal. Both had fists up initially but both went immediately to their preliminary signal (particularly the C calling the charge). But they immediately recognized it, L pointed to C in deference, C restated his call and it stood. They figured it out real quick and no one had time to even figure out the double call.

If you are going to mess it up, it looked to me (for all I know) that they fixed it the right way :)

Frankly, from the stands it looked like a block :) (I was watching, having just finished my really lame girls JV game; I love reffing but sometimes those are a drag).

I was in the locker room with them after the game. They didnt discuss it. So I asked "how did you guys decide who to defer to on that block/charge you had?" Guy who was L said "I thought he had a better look so I gave it to him" (even though it was right under the basket). I said "You guys shure resolved it quick, before anyone who wasnt a ref even figured out there was a double whistle."

It seemed to me (for all I know) that the problem was two fold: 1. the gym was loud and I dont know if the C heard his partner's whistle to clue him in to the double whistle and his partner, as the L, was under on the other side which might have blocked him out; and 2. the general enthusiasm in going right to that emphatic charge motion for the crowd. Everyone loves to make that charge call!

I think had the C held his fist a little longer (and the L too) and not gone to the charge signal right away they could have recognized the double and worked it out without having to have given two conflicting preliminary signals.

I'm just trying to learn by watching.

Clark

[Edited by totalnewbie on Feb 9th, 2005 at 01:31 AM]

Totalnewbie,

If two officials come out with different signals, then they have to go with a double foul. It is technically against the rules to go with one or the other. I am sorry I do not have my casebook right now, but they have to go with a double foul according to the casebook.

Peace

I wasn't there when this story actually happened, but my partner last night told me the following, which occurred in a D3 NCAA game this season.

A1 drives to the basket and contacts B1 who has a position almost directly beneath the hoop, knocking B1 to the floor and the ball goes in. The lead official whistles and indicates and verbalizes a charge, and wipes off the hoop.

As he gets to the reporting area, he says to this partner, "Wait, he was right under the basket. I can't call that a charge." Then to the table and benches, he says "My mistake! Block! Score the basket. Shooting one."

In this play, should they have administered it as a one-man blarge?!!! (eek)

Why was your partner trying to use an NCAA woman's rule in a man's game? It's a charge if the contact occured before the ball went in, isn't it?:confused:

I think what you're saying here is the play came from the C's area? If so then that was the C's call. But it sounds like they handled it OK although a coach who was paying attention and knew what he was doing might have questioned why only 1 of the 2 fouls counts.

It wasn't my partner. It was his partner from a game earlier in the season. But I don'tknow why he wiped the shot originally. Maybe it was still in the kid's hand when he made the contact? I didn't think to ask that.

Whoever it was, they didn't have any rules justification to change their call from a "charge" into a "block". That was my point.

Btw, welcome to the forum.