First of all, I am concerned about a few individuals that are coaching and teaching the youth in my state and area. I have seen a couple of examples of sportsmanship and role modeling that quite frankly are very alarming, in my opinion. Let me tell you about one situation. At the end of a boys varsity basketball game we were headed off the court and the head coach of this team shouted "I hope you can sleep tonight because you just f***ed my boys tonight". "You just f***ed my boys". This was said out on the court in front of both team's players and coaches and fans and whomever else was attending the contest. Now, I feel like we called a very fair ball game, of course that is only my perspective, I understand that. My frustration is that I have young kids that will play sports someday and I WOULD NOT want them to play for someone with those types of values. I am so surprised and concerned that a community would allow this FOR THEIR KIDS.

Thank you for your comments,

shont

You're surprised the the community allows it? You allowed it! You should have immediately assessed a flagrant technical foul and ejected the coach.

If you didn't, why not?

2005 POI:
C. Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.

The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse.

Do your kids and community a favor,approach your state/local association and write this up. It is your responsibility.

If coach also teach's a class at that HSchool - what would he do with such language in the class or hallway? I'll be hisfile already has similiar reports.

IT was at the end of the game. I don't appreciate you trying to blame the coaches poor sportsmanship on me either!

Thank you ref daddy. I like what you are saying. We are going to report this to our state association, and yes I have since found out that he does have a past history with this sort of behavior. Once again, IMHO, I don't want someone with those values working with MY kids.

Hmm...
 

Last night my home school played a school for a district game. This team we played was 3-0 for district and was the only school around here who had won all 3 games. From the tip-off to the end of the game the coach used the F word atleast 10 times. When they would loose the ball he would punch the chair, the fans were hollaring like they were itiots. The officiating was great (and Im not saying this because we won) but I guess some people just cant stand to loose. :(

It makes no difference whether it's the end of the game or not. Your jurisdiction does not end until you leave the "visual confines of the playing area." The purpose of this rule is to allow you to handle situations such as this. Do you not realize this rule exists?

You and your partner(s) should have immediately stopped, went to the scorer and told him/her to record that the head coach had received a flagrant technical foul and is ejected. Then, you file a report with your assignor/state association or whoever and document the coach's behavior.

You can be offended all you want but if you're good enough to accept a varsity assignment, you should know what to do in a situation such as this.

Thank you basketball ref. We are in the process of handling this situation.

shont

I hate to tell you this shont...well, maybe I don't hate to tell you...but, BBR is absolutely correct.

This, almost exact, situation happened to a fellow official and friend of mine a couple weeks ago. Not to mention any names but he posts here once in a while.

As he was leaving the court...the losing Varsity coach comes up to him and grabs his arm saying, "YOU F***** US"!!!
Boom...Flagrant T...official went to book and logged it...called his assignor after the game...and the coach had to sit out his next Varsity game. Good job on my buddy's part!
(Not sure what the state is doing about it now)

So yes...shont...you have the power to stop this behavior, at least while you are within the visual confines of the court...game over or not.

BTW, I am not blaming you for the coach's bad behavior...and I didn't blame my friend...although I did have a suggestion to get thehell outta there so he might not be as likely to have this type of situation come up.

Thank you rookie dude for the advice. I appreciate it.

shont

Exactly. I'm not blaming you for the coach's behavior either.

But when you don't take care of business, you become part of the problem. There were probably people at the game who thought or said, "That coach cussed those refs out and they didn't do a thing."

My association has had two similiar situations, where the coach went nuts after the game. To their credit, officials in both games ejected the coach. Both were suspended for two games.

Perhaps this was the first time you've ever had this happen. But you've got to be prepared for the unexpected, know the rule and how to apply it, no matter the situation.

This Happen To Me...
 

Sounds like something out of an Outdoor Life magazine, huh? Anyway, California about 11 years ago.... My partner makes a call on a player that stepped on the OOB line. The coach comes onto the court to complain and I "T'd" him. He turned to me and said "F*** you" right in front of his bench and loud enough that most of his fan section heard him. I calmly gave him his 2nd "T" and told him that he could wait outside for the game to end. And he did with no further incident.
I filed my Letter of Ejection and the coach sat out the required number of games. What also came from it was that I was no longer permitted to referee at that school for almost 3 years in basketball... An official is a contractor was the reason cited... It was fine... And yet it was disappointing at the same time...

Re: This Happen To Me...
 

Getting scratched from a school like that would be a pleasure. There are more schools out there than I could possibly work, anyway.

Just Curious,

I smell what your stepping in!!! The same thing happened to me a few years back. Emotion charged game, goes to overtime, I call an intentional foul on the home squad for pushing a kid in the back with a clear bunny from the low block. End of game after two free throws and the ball. After the game on our way to the dressing room, we have to walk the same direction as the home team. We are waiting to be admitted to the room when the B squad coach comes to us and says "no matter what the head coach says, I think you called a great game". I should have taken that as a warning but thought nothing of it. Then the head coach comes by and shakes our hands and says "good game...you'll never work another f*****g game here again!" I couldn't believe what I had just heard. So I told my partner, "I guess we'll be filing an incident report tonight." I got a call from the A.D. the next morning asking me what happened. I told him and that was it. No apology from the coach or school. I just have never worked another f*****g game there since. Very bush league and I don't care if I work there or not.

bktballref I have seen you say before, "Get off the court immediatly after the game or you are asking trouble." Yet now you are saying that you should stay, T a coach up, go to the book and record it. I completely agree with the logic as I would eject him on a flagarant T as well. But, I have seen you say that before, and this suggestion seems to be at odds with that. Is it "do not leave the court if your ego is threatened?" Ha, I mean no offense, but I don't get the contradiction that you will say doesnt' exist?

I worked at a school last season and it was a strange first quarter -- the first 6 fouls went against the visiting team. The first foul against the home team was a PC foul up top as the guard lowered her shoulder and used it as a battering ram :)

Unknown to me, the home coach (who just had the first foul called against him out of seven called) turned and told the AD to scratch me. I only found out in the car cause my wife was near the AD in the stands. The coach's attitude filtered down to his players -- I called two player technicals against them in that game.

I saw him on the road this year and it reminded my why I was THRILLED he scratched me last season. If only he could scratch me on the road....

If it happens before you get off the court, then you have to take care of it. Getting outa Dodge is always a good idea, but if something happens before you can actually get outa Dodge, then you gotta have the nads to take care of business- not walk away from it.

BktBallRef was stating the obvious. Don't wait around hoping for the players, coaches or fans to tell you what a great game you just officiated. If you do, you're much more liable to hear what a complete a$$hole you are. Disappear. If a coach or player swears at you while you're in the process of disappearing, you can't ignore their flagrant actions. You have to stay there and deal with them.

I realize all of that. It just seemed to be at odds with a statement he and others made about a thread not too long ago. They made it abundantly clear "get out get out get out." I think one of the threads this came up with was someone asking if an official should check in with the table and the official book before leaving the confines of the court. Just seems like a contradiction to me.

My only point is that it's hard to say "never do this" with situations because there are often times exceptions...like this. I guess I just got the impression that the posts made about this topic before made it sound like you should always run away from the court. In fact, I know some of them said that.

[Edited by Rar on Feb 5th, 2005 at 03:28 PM]

RAR,
What he said isn't at odds with anything else he's said. Basically, it amounts to this.
1. Don't hang around after the game. don't approach the coach to discuss the game. Don't look for someone to give the ball to. Look at the scorers to see if it looks like there's any trouble. If they look fine, get out.
2. If you aren't able to get out before someone does something that needs to be dealt with; deal with it.

I believe the thread you are talking about was about an official approaching the coach and saying something like, "Tough game, coach."

Rar...
maybe you need to re-read JR's post.
Yes...get out of Dodge.
No...don't run away from your responsability.

If a situation arises that prohibits you from getting out of Dodge...then take care of it like ya got a pair. :)

BTW, I don't "run" off the court. I maybe jog or walk fast with ALL my partners TOGETHER.
Never run off the court and leave your partners or yourself hanging alone.

Uh..why are you guys trying to explain someone elses position. Only person I called out was bktballref. I'd like his answer, not yours. I know the rule, I know what you're "supposed to do," and I didn't ask or talk about that at all. All I wanted was an explanation from bktballref about what I viewed as an inconsistency. I hope the officials that have responded so far aren't the type that think officials are never wrong...the ego's would tell me some of you think that. It doesn't matter how well you know the rules, you will still make mistakes.

Bottom line, not sure why I generated so much feedback when I only wanted it from one person lol. I wasn't asking for an interpretation of what to do. As I said, I agree with the advice given here, I just wanted to point out the inconsistency in his statements. Gosh I feel like I have to explain myself 10 times haha. Some of you seemed offended...wasn't my intent, my bad.

[Edited by Rar on Feb 5th, 2005 at 04:08 PM]

Come on down off the high horse Tony. There are times when the best thing to do is just continue off the floor and write up a report. You weren't there.

Z

Exactly zebraman. That is all my post meant. You put it much better than I did. No offense bktballref...just different perceptions.

To get back to Shont's original post, I have never seen this happen, but maybe someone else has. When you T up the coach for something like this, besides the ejection and reporting him to the association, what if his team had only won by 2 points or better yet, 1 point? Even though the game is over and there is no time on the clock, since the officials have not left the visual confines of the gym, you then get a shooter from the losing (non-offending) team, he shoots 2 FT's off the technical, makes both, his team now wins the game and the A**hole coach didn't even get to see it because he was outside already. Maybe he would have to listen to some PO'd parents and players, too. Anyone ever see or hear of something like this happening?

There is no contradiction. When the game is over, you should leave the court ASAP, as your job should be complete. You try to do this to avoid such confrontations. But if a coach starts hurling f-bombs, then your job is not complete.

You can either go to the table and take care of business or you can request that the book be brought to the locker room.

It has nothing to do with ego. It's unsporting conduct that you would address in it occurred during the game. Why should it be ignored after the game?

And if you don't get it, well, I can't do anything about that.

Sorry, RAR, I answered because I would have been completely shocked if BktBallRef had answered any differently than I did. That was very presumptious on my part. Let me assure you that I will try not to respond to any of your posts in the future.

I didn't have to be there. Shont had a job to do, I challenged him as to why he didn't do it. All his crew did by ignoring the coach was make it more difficult for the next crew.

That's my opinion. I'd tell you or anyone else here the same thing. If you don't like, hey, I couldn't care less.

bktball ref I just hear a lot of ego in your statements. "He had a job to do and didn't do it." WHen you make mistakes on the court in a game, you failed in your job as well by that standard. Every time you make a mistake, like that one about you yelling/tauning at a coach recently, you fail your job. Point? That language you use is harsh and stupid and egotistical. Still...i'm not trying to offend you :).

Also JR, don't get offended. All I said was not sure why you responded to a post that wasn't directed at ya. I know you were just trying to defend a friend though. So it's cool.

First, the other posters are replying because they understand what I've previously said and they aggree with me. It's a discussion board. We're all allowed to address any post. That doesn't mean that you've offended them.

Second, you've misconstrued what I've previously said. In a thread earlier this week, I quoted something mick said a long time ago. "Get in, get done, get out," not "Get out, get out, get out." That simply means "Work the game, call the obvious, and don't add any 4hit to the game."

We aren't talking about making a judgment on a foul or deciding if a player traveled. We're talking about a very black and white issue. A coach throws f-bombs at you. He's history. It doesn't matter when he does it, as long as you have jurisdiction.

Yes, I realize I made a mistake and failed to properly do my job in the incident with the coach. That's why I apologized to the coach and then wrote my confessional here. I can admit when I make a mistake. Can you? Can Shont?

So, if you want disagree with the manner in which I addressed Shont, be my guest. You're entitled to your opinion. But have the 'nads to say what you mean, rather then coming up with this "contradiction" crap. If I'm contradicting myself, then I guess the NFHS rule book does as well. BTW, since we're being honest and not trying about offending anyone, it's pretty stupid that you think my statements are contradictory. Most anyone with a brain wouldn't have to have it explained to them. :)

"Maybe someone with a brain wouldn't have to have it explained to them."

I was thinking just that as I read your last post. You aren't getting it at all. I've went through what my point to posting was in every post i've had so far...you aren't getting it.

Just read what you say, like that above. You are being egotistical and condescending, like you did to the original poster (which is what set me off). I have nads (as you call them) and that's exactly why I posted to you saying I think you contradict yourself. I think you like stepping on your soap box and prevailing over the "noobies." (which to you is a lot of people). This is reflected by your earlier post that says "I'm getting sick of all the people that don't know anything around here." You might not have said exactly that, but you know which thread i'm talking about. And yes, I make mistakes, that's why I don't like when people think they don't...we all do.

My problem is with your contradiction and your attitude. I didn't say you don't know the rules, I didn't say you are wrong on interpretations. Do you get it now? What started as a simple question turned into you personally attacking me because of your ego. Back to square one.

Additionally, you probably know the rules better than I do, i'm no expert and I wasn't setting out to try to 'prove my worth.' Also, we are all officials here (well at least you and I) so my posts to you are out of that respect. This is a tough job and is only furthered by these kind of sometimes heated discussions. My purpose wasn't to start a war.

I think this discussion between you and I is over with now. We've both said our piece and all it is going to turn into is a flame war that shouldn't be on this forum. I just wanted to get your take on your supposed contradiction. Have a good night.

[Edited by Rar on Feb 5th, 2005 at 06:01 PM]

Let's get something straight. I didn't address you disrepectfully at all. I never said anything offending to you until you referred to me as stupid after I answered your question.

Rookiedude, Snaqwells, and Jurassic Ref could understand that there was no contradiction in my statements. Picking a fight was exactly the reason you posted, because you didn't like the way I addressed Shont.

You've got as much ego as anyone here. So, in the words of zebraman, "Get off your high horse," and smell a little of what you're shoveling.

Finally, I'll be glad to post case plays and Official's Manual procedures for leaving the floor if you like, so that you can understand that the books have no contradictions. Yeah, I was hard on Shont for not following those procedures. But I have nothing against him. Hopefully, what I said will find a home somewhere in the back of his mind and he'll remember what to do next time. I know that when I've screwed up, someone jumping my a$$ has helped me not to make that mistake again.

I'm done.

Double T, I've had enough from both you.

One more word and you're out of here.

Haha... really now.

Rar, one thing I will point out is that when you keep "quoting" someone with wrong quotes, it really harps on your credability, some of what your saying makes sense... but you can't put quotes around something and then admit you weren't sure what he said. As he pointed out earlier, the thing that started your entire contradication argument was both something 1) misquoted and 2) something taken out of context. Just something to chew on before you argue in the future. No problem arguing, just don't create quotes and facts that don't exist.

Nope, that's completely wrong. Friendship has got nothing to do with anything. I've never met BktBallRef in my life. I have been reading his posts for the last 5 years or so, though, and I have a great deal of respect for his judgement and rules knowledge. I also respect Snaqs and RookieDude's judgement too, as well as a whole pile of other people that post here regularly- too many to mention. That doesn't mean that I don't disagree with any of them on something every now and then though.

I responded to your post because I thought I might have been able to add something helpful. Obviously I was wrong, in your opinion. As I said, I'll try not to let it happen again.

I realize I am coming in on the end of this discussion, but I want to know how you even hear that kind of comment. Even if I heard the word, I am not going to stick around to figure out who said it. I might write a report, but I am not going to give a T. Why bother doing all of that. Sticking around you are looking for trouble. The game ends, I get off the court.

Peace

Jeff, in the two situations that occurred here, the coach confronted the officials as they left the floor, in a manner no different than when a bully confronts a child at school. I can assure you that had either crew ignored the outburst and not taken care of business, it is them who would be sitting home for two games, not the coach.

OK, whatever you say Tony. Maybe that is the way it works in your area. Not necessarily the way it works in mine. I would probably report the incident, but not a T on the court. Do what you feel is necessary. I will do what I feel is necessary.

I do know that if my hang up is whether someone used a bad word every now and then I would have to give out a T like I eat a lifesavers. I am more concerned with the tone and the behavior than some specific words that come out of someone's mouth.

Peace

IMHO, the best recourse is to just get off the floor. If you go back and assess a T, all you are doing is adding something to the scorer's book. Is it worth all that to go back on the floor and be subjected to whatever else might happen by not getting into your locker room? Heck no.

Just get off the floor and write a report on the coach later. He's going to get into just as much trouble from your report as he is by getting a report AND adding a T to the book.

Z

That's not the procedure we're required to follow in NC. As I wrote earlier, you can always request that the rule book be brought to the locker room.

In some situations, the T may affect the outcome of the game. In that case, you have no choice but to stay and administer.

"[...] you have no choice but to stay and administer it."

There I even quoted you completely correct with the [...] meaning words came before..so don't get off on me about that :). Obviously, some very experienced/knowledgeable officials on here (Jrut and zebraman) feel differently. They do have a choice and it sounds like their choice is to just get off the court. So for you to say they aren't doing their job because they don't follow your approach bktball ref, is wrong.

BBR can be rub people the wrong way...Lord knows we have went at it several times...but in this case he is 100% correct.

Yes officials should make every effort to leave the court as quickly as possible once time expires, but as you are running off the court and a coach does what was described in this thread, the officials MUST handle it.

To ignore it is not only NOT doing your job, you are setting up the next crew to get the same treatment from this coach AND the opposing coach who saw what was allowed.

It is not only the correct thing, per rule, but the RIGHT thing. The right thing is usually not easy. Ignoring it is easy so...

R-E-A-D M-Y L-I-P-S!

If you call a technical foul and the FTs could affect the game, "you have no choice but to stay and administer it."

I'm paraphrasing BktBallRef;; what you permit, you promote.

Saw a game a few years back where in a subsection championship game, heated rivalry, team A wins at the buzzer on a fullcourt driving layup, coach from team A flips the double birds to team B's student section following the horn. Officials were off the court and never saw it, but the school did suspend him for the section championship a few nights later. Real class act at that school! :p

I disagree. In this instance, I think it was a flagrant T. In most states, the ejection carries an automatic penalty (suspension for some periopd of time). If you record the flagrant T, then the coach sits. If you just write it up later, the coach (perhaps) gets only a slap on the wrist.

If the situation happened with one second to go in the game, we'd report it, even if the resulting throws wouldn't affect the game. Treat it no differently if it happens just after the game ends.

Thank you Chris. You said it so much nicer than I did. I'll have to work on that! ;)

Of course we would report it if there was one second left in the game. That's a whole different situation. But we're talking about officials who are leaving the floor. I would venture to say that the coach who yelled at the officials is from the team that lost. Just get the heck off the floor.

Around here, the coach would still get suspended from the officials report, regardless of whether or not the officials walked back to the scorer's table to have a T entered in the book. Around here, officials who went back to the scorer's table would also be asked, "why the heck did you walk back out into the hornets nest to call a T that had no effect on anything?"

Z

Bob,

There have been coaches in our state that got suspended for their conduct that were not called in the setting of the game. I think filing the report is enough. I am not going to report a T in the setting where a coach is acting a fool. I want to get the heck out of dodge and report the incident to the state. Let the state take issue with his conduct.

Peace

Of course we would report it if there was one second left in the game. That's a whole different situation.

[/B][/QUOTE]Z, for the life of me, I just can't see where this is a "whole different situation". The bottom line is that it happened during our jurisdiction. Does it really matter whether it happened in the pre-game, during the game, or before we've left the floor?

I can see the argument of someone maybe saying that this isn't a flagrant or unsporting act in their own personal opinion, and as such, they would just ignore it and not call it. I wouldn't agree with that, but I can certainly respect their right to have that opinion. I can't see the logic however of someone that agrees that it is an unsporting(and even flagrant unsporting) act, but recommending that we should just ignore an act like that. Imo, that does a great dis-service to the next crew of officials who have to put up with that coach. Again, jmo.

My question is why this is a "Flagrant foul?"

Why is the "F" word so much worse than any other curse word? Maybe it is to some, but it is not to me. You can say a lot of other things that I would consider Flagrant and are not considered curse words.

I do not understand why this word is so objectionable but other words are not treated the same way.

Peace

But, there have also been instances where the respone to the report was "it wasn't bad enough to earn a T, so it's not bad enough to punish now." (That's anecdotal, of course).

It doesn't take any time to walk past the scorer's table, instruct them to record a T, then leave. Now, you're covered.

I have heard similar things, but they were about situations that happen during the game. This is after the game as the officials are leaving the court. I am not going back to the table where this coach is to just record a T in the book. And just because I tell them to do that, does not mean they will put that in the book. What if this is the home coach, do you think they home book might not take too kindly to your request? Why exacerbate the situation. Get off the court and file a report. Let the state take care of the rest. If they think nothing should be done, oh well. At least this is in a file somewhere and someone is on notice of this coach's behavior.

Peace

My opinion... because this type of language is not permitted in the classroom especially when it is coming from the educators. Where I officiate, the gym is an extension of the classroom and what is not acceptable there is not acceptable in the gym. You would not allow a teacher to tell a student in front of the class (or in private for that matter) that he "competed f'd up on his exam". Completely unacceptable.

And I don't think it is just that word. I think Bob, Tony JR, et al would have the same response had the coach told the officials that they "were all b!tches" or that they were "complete a$$holes". They are words, but agree or not some are not acceptable in our culture especially in this environment! As a parent, I would come unglued, If my kid's coach set this kind of example.

I did not ask you if the words were acceptable. I asked why this word was flagrant.

I also do not care what others think like Bob, Tony or JR think as it relates to my own philosophy. I do not have to accept their point of view on it because it offends them. You call me a "b!tch" I might take that a lot differently than most here depending on who said it and in what context it is used. Any official has the right to take on whatever point of view on this they like, but I just wanted to know why this word was so bad and deserved an automatic ejection and other words for some reason do not meet that criteria.

Peace

Snicker
 

Not sure why I feel compelled to respond...but

Rar,
You don't write like a simpleton so I must assume that you truly DO understand the answers that have been given and are simply trying to instigate this situation. Your feigned ignorance of game ending management and the silly inclusion of calling Tony's statements contradictory is laughable. (Snicker, snicker.) You don't appear to be trying to understand but rather to create a brou-ha-ha.

To restate what Tony and Chris have said 'what you permit, you promote.' Whatever we are willing to tolerate is exactly what we will have. I couldn't agree more strongly.

In another discussion thread on this forum, a Pennsylvania offical was man-handled by a parent ('inadvertantly' body slammed). The official has been permanently debilitated since the event. At the conclusion of the case the Judge made a public statement that sports fans are getting out of hand and then found the offender guilty of Simple Assault. He handed out a trivial penalty where a severe, maximum penalty was appropriate.

Is it any small wonder that fans are getting out of hand? The Judge permitted/tolerated these terrible acts and essentially promoted them by only delivering a trivial penalty. Shont also promoted such behavior because he did not immediately turn around and let everyone know (fans, players, coaches) that cursing at the officials as they leave the court will absolutely not be tolerated. These actions were publically permitted and therefore publically promoted. It is now okay to publically say at the top of your voice that the 'officials f***** the players.'

Now here's my real riff... Because Shont tolerated it, now it's gong to happen again. Because the Judge said that it was no big deal to have parents enter the court and physically injure the officials, it will likely happen again. We seem to be our own worst enemy.

There is no high horse here. Think of it as a training ground. Shont has likely learned what the proper response should have been and will likely enforce it next time.

Rut is rarely on the same page as anyone else. F-bombs are apparently okay with him... again, we are our own worst enemy. Rut, I recommend that you join the crowd. The F-bomb is not a publically acceptable word and the penalty should be appropriately enforced by ALL officials.

Any coach that uses profanity and questions your integrity after the game needs to be sat down for a while. I would not hesitate to call this kind of behavior flagrant. There was a coach in our area that did this on Tuesday night. He didn't get to coach when I saw his team on Friday night.

Re: Snicker
 

First of all that is a huge mischaracterization of my point of view. If I was so much off base of anyone else, then I would not be working the places and the games that I do. ;) I might be off base with people that live in other states and do not have the same experience or values that I hold, or work in the same places.

Where did I say using the "F" word was acceptable? I think I asked why it was a "Flagrant Foul?" I can see a T, but not necessarily and "automatic Flagrant T" as Tony tells everyone this should be. I also said to file a report which in my book is very serious. In my state when you write a report, the Principle, AD and the coach would all get a copy from that school. Then the State would require a response from the individual to defend their actions or tell the state how they are going to prevent that action from happening again. I do not consider writing a report "accepting behavior." Accepting the behavior would be to do absolutely nothing. I have heard players say things and I am not sure exactly what is said, I always address it or say something like, "I hope I did not hear you say what I think you said." Usually they get the message and no Ts are given. I work in many games where it is very loud and hard to hear everything being said clearly. I am not sure I would have heard such a thing going off the court. If I did I would just fill out a report and let the state and school deal with the actions. Those special reports might result in a coach losing their jobs, not just a game or two.

Peace

And I gave you a reason. It is flagrant because it is not acceptable language and it is probably the one of the worst shows of sportsmanship I have heard of in a while, especially in an education environment. If you don't agree, then don't agree. You asked "why" so I gave you my opinion. I also made the point that it is not just the F word but many other curse words. Your question seemed to imply that it was the F word that was drawing so much ire and I was making the point that it is not just the F word that may justify a flagrant T but many other unacceptable words in an education envrironment.

If you don't agree, that is fine, but I was answering your question from my point of view. I'm done with this...

Re: Re: Snicker
 

It's not the F word that makes it flagrant. It's this quote from the original post that makes it flagrant:

"the head coach of this team shouted "I hope you can sleep tonight because you just f***ed my boys tonight". "You just f***ed my boys"."

So are the words "$h!t, damn and b!tch" but I do not hear anyone wanting to throw out players for those type of language. That is really my point. The F-word is not the only unacceptable language in the classroom or in an educational environment. But for some reason this word is the only one that seems to bring out the "ejection" calling. I know I hear a lot of unacceptable language on and off the court (or field) and I do not see anyone ejecting anyone for the use of this word or any other word you cannot hear on network TV.

Not sure what the attitude was about. I do not recall that I was just responding to your post alone. I wanted to know why there was a double standard. I am not asking for agreement, just understanding of that point of view.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Snicker
 

That might be the case. That is not how it was characterized by certain individuals. It was said that the F-word was an automatic Flagrant foul. I just want to know why that is so bad and other profane words are not "automatic."

Peace

I think you answered your own question. For you, being called a b!tch might be extremely offensive in a certain context. I think it's fair to say that if someone makes a personal comment directed at them and that comment includes the f-word, most people would find that extremely offensive. That you would not only goes to your point that everyone is different about what offends them and what doesn't. I think a coach of a high school level team or below, representing a school, needs to be held to a higher standard when he's working in the confines of that relationship. The only true means we have to punish such actions is the flagrant foul. If you choose not to use that type of a punishment, that's within your rights as an official. Like most everything else, it's a judgement call.

[Edited by Smitty on Feb 7th, 2005 at 02:23 PM]

I am not telling people that they should handle a situation the way I did. That is a big difference from others that are here. Even JR said that if one official does not penalize this action, it makes it harder on the next officials. Well I see that as crap because I really do not care what the other officials before me do. I am a different person and working with different people than the time before. I have no problem with what happens one night might not be the same the next night. If a coach rolls the dice he might just crap out. That is the chance that coach takes. But I do not like this point of view that I have to do what you do. To me that is your decision when you are in that situation. Just do not ridicule me because I do not feel the same way.

Peace

****ing amazing.

If I was walking past the scorer's table, I would probably call a T and ask the scorer to put it in the book as I continued off the floor. If I was down at the end of the floor towards the locker room (which is what I was assuming from the original post), I am just going to keep going and write a report afterwards.

In my area, a coach would get just as much punishment (suspension) from the official's report than if I walk back to the table and have the scorer write a T down in the book. What purpose does it serve for me to go back since the coaches punishment will be the same either way? Answer: None.

I am not going to tolerate that abuse at the end of the game and my report will be very thorough. But for me to swim upstream against the players and coaches after that outburst is just dumb, IMHO.

Z

See this isn't offensive. It's funny.

Now this is offensive and you didn't even use the F-word.

We are our worst enemy. :(

And my statements are not meant to "ridicule" you.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Feb 7th, 2005 at 03:02 PM]

I tend to follow the Carlin Doctrine in determining what words are acceptable or not. That is, those seven (7) words you cannot say on regular television.

• $hit
• Pi$$
• Fu**
• C***
• C***sucker
• Motherf*****
• Ti*s

You utter any of these words in my game and you are gone.:)

This is my point. I have worked some games where there are metal detectors, security all over the place and a very hostile crowd. I am not going back into that situation to give a T to the table. Sorry, but I am not. I would not do that with no metal detectors at the door and little security. It sounds wonderful to have the opportunity to go back to the table and put something in the book. I just did a game where on our way to the locker room a fan said something very hostile to my crew after a game. You think I am going to go back out in that kind of situation just to make sure he loses a game? Sorry, but that is just plain dumb.

Peace

I agree in some ways and it is surely is a Had To Be There situation. But your answer of "None." is wrong to me. It is wrong because the crowd saw you permit/tolerate that behavior. You have now promoted it to them. Perhaps they are couth enough to understand your predicament and have their own scrupples to prevent themselves from doing similarly. Perhaps not. Perhaps that was the impetus they wanted and now they will feel it is acceptable to vent similarly.

To turn around and blow the whistle in his face "That's a flagrant technical foul, Coach. And I WILL file the paperwork. And you WILL be sitting out next game." sends a rather large meaning. You just don't deliver that message to the proper audience if you quietly file the paperwork and the coach sits a game.

Again HTBT.

Now turn and run!:D

So now you're saying that it's dumb to not do it your way. Isn't that just as bad as you scolding others for telling you to do it their way?

Our commissioner told us that any ejection is only valid if it's entered into the official scorebook. If it is not, the issue is open to appeal. This is probably a state thing. So before you go telling everyone how dumb it is to not do it your way, take a step back and realize that every area doesn't necessarily do things your way.

You have some serious problems if you are always trying to use other officials as your barometers for your own judgment. I know a lot of officials that do thing that I would never do. If I am going to follow something an official does, they better be more successful than I am or better have some clout I do not have. Life is not fair and everything is not equal.

Peace

For the record:

"You f***ed my boys!"

"You sons a b***hes screwed my boys!"

"D@mn you, you screwed my boys!"

"You screwed my boys! You'll never work here again!"

...would all get the coach tossed by me, whether it was before, during or after the game. Anyone here who wouldn't TCB is not doing his/her job and is just making it more difficult on the rest of us. I don't care who you are, how many years you've been calling, or how good you think you are. You're useless as an official in my book. JMHO


2.8.1 COMMENT:
Unsporting tactics, in general, involve relationships between opponents, between the players and officials, between the spectators and officials, between the players and spectators, between the coaches and spectators, and between coaches and officials. In most situations, it does not apply to the relationship of a player to teammates, nor to the coach and members of the team. However, these standards are not without exception. For example, profanity on the part of a participant, coach or member of the team is considered to be an unsporting act, whether or not the profanity is directed at any individual or is merely a means of “letting off steam.” (10-1-8; 10-3-7; 10-4-1)

5.6.4 SITUATION A:
Following the final horn in a game which has team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

I think it is personally dumb to go into a hostile situation for the soul purpose to give a flagrant T to the table, when we there are situations where the officials might be threatened by the crowd, coaches or even players. I do not know about you, but I would rather avoid a possible fight and report the incident to the state where action will and can be taken by others.

I feel sorry for the area you live in then. I bet if an official gets attacked by going back into an already hostile situation to put something in the book at that time, then that policy might change. That is why our state gives us a Special Report form to do that. We can file these reports for any violation of sportsmanship or incident that happens outside of the confines of the game. To me a coach doing that is outside of the confines of the game. I have had coaches that came into the locker room to confront coaches and my report got that coach suspended for multiple games. All reports have to be responded to and they are not limited to ejections. I would probably file a report if no profanity was used. It is not about the word it is what is said and how it is said.

Peace

You may have noticed that offensive delivery and profanity often come in the same bottle.:)

Just for the record, I would not go back to the table if I felt I was in danger and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else either.

5 of those are no longer automatic, depending on context.:D

Tony,

Do you call 3 seconds to the letter?

Do you give a T for a coach questioning your integrity by talking about the foul count?

I realize what the rulebook says and what you can do. This discussion for me is not about whether this is something that needs to be addressed or even T'd. What I was asking was why this one word is more important than any other word. I do not read in the rulebook or casebook a play that specifically distinguishes one word over another to the point they have to be ejected. Many of these discussions are about situation that are outside of the specifics of the rulebook and why we are having this discussion in the first place. Of course an official has the right to take action before they leave the court. I just do not consider all situations safe or reasonable to handle that way. The NF is not going to take you to the hospital when someone throws something at you or you get jumped because you have to go back into a hostile situation and you now get hurt.

This is all based on opinion and where you are at when you are doing the game. I know if I work in some places I would not go out to the court at all and other places it might not be much of a concern. It for me all depends on the environment you find yourself in.

Peace

????????Huh????????

Really simple, you just have to think about it.
 

If someone does not use a <b>profane</b> word, they can be even more offensive if they imply something or make a personal comment. Words that are offensive are not just based on what Carlin used in his monologue. I am sure you can think of many things something can say to someone and not curse one time. If you have not, maybe you are just lucky.

Peace

We're not talking about 3 seconds, we're not talking about a FT violation, or any other issue.

We aren't talking about a coach asking about a call, complaining about a call or commenting about the foul count.

We're discussing a coach berating officials in an unsporting manner by using threats, intimidation, profanity and whatever else he chooses to use. The entire point of my previous post is that IT ISN'T ABOUT THAT ONE WORD! That just happens to be the word that was used in the original situation. Look at my examples! You'll notice that only one of them includes your favorite word.

So stop trying to comparethis situation to issues that have nothing to do with this. You make your self appear stupid when you do.

You are right we are not talking about 3 second. But when you use the rulebook as the end all be all decision making tool and you do not consider other factors, you are not be honest with all of us here. I can show you how to call 3 seconds in the rulebook and casebook but the reality is different when I am out there on the court. That is all I am saying.


OK, then you go to the table and get your @ss kicked or threatened and I will be in the locker room talking about what I am going to put in my report. I am not going to stay on the court so this coach can berate me some more and I have to put something in the book (which is semantics if you ask me). This comes down to what your state policy is. I will write a report and the same result will take place. I do not need the scorebook to confirm what I have done. That is not apart of our process. I will let the state handle it from there.

Peace