Hi all,
First off, let me say this place is great, and I've already learned a lot and love the discussion and wealth of information here.

My question is this. I USED to spread my arms to indicate there was no closely guarded count, because I was told not to do that by a varsity official. ANOTHER varsity official told me TO do it, and that it's helpful in those "grey areas," of whether or not its within 6-feet.

After much thought, I believe that I shouldn't do it anymore. If I'm not counting, then there's no closely guarded situation. Is that right? Thanks again all,

Yes, that's right. There's no such HS mechanic. That's an NCAA mechanic.

I don't know about the HS mechanic but just to clarify the NCAA mechanic you do not indicate if you have not started a count. The fact you are not counting indicates they are not closely guarded. You will see people use the spread arms after they have started a count to indicate the player is no longer closely guarded. This is the proper mechanic.

Anyone think this'll make it into NFHS mechanics within the next set of rule changes??

You might want to ask your state association (if you have one)
what you are expected to do. We are required to do it by the state board of the association of the state I am in (which isn't Ohio).

I find it useful once or twice a season, but I sure don't make a habit of it. The time I use it is when there's a direct question about the sitch.

Coach: Isn't that five yet?

Me: (signal with arms)

Coach: Ashley, step up!! Step up!!

I know it's not official, but it has it's uses. Just like the kick signal did before this year.

We were told at the rules interpretation meeting not to use it because it is an NCAA mechanic, not NFHS. I'll admit I do use it once in a while if there is a long dead period where the defender is standing farther than 6 feet away staring at the man with the ball. Sometimes it helps let people know what's happening at that moment, and like in Juulie's ilustration it can spark some action. Personally, I would like to see it added. I think is helps communicate.

I wouldn't mind seeing it added. Doubt it will make it though.

I know it's not in the Fed manual, but I've used a coupla times this season. Especially when there is a closely guarded situation, then not, then I have a feeling it's going to start again. I know the switching of the arms means a new count, and I always do that, but how many coaches know that. The simple little not closely guarded signal conveys alot of information to a coach and the players.

But remember folks: I'm not looking to do college ball, so when in Rome...

Should the mechanic trickle down into Fed, I would not complain, and yes I would still switch arms for a new count.

Two years ago we did, last year we didn't, this year we are again...all on the word of the state assn'.

We were told not to do that mechanic, so you do not see it. I would just listen to your local people. Like I said in another thread, it is all about the playoffs. If doing a mechanic is going to prevent you from further advancement, I would suggest that you do not use it. If no one cares, use whatever mechanic you feel helps you on the court.

Peace

I use it when it's needed.

I know it's not a NF mech but this has stayed off the radar in our state and assoc meetings so until they make a big deal of it, I'll keep using it. I think it's a good mechanic.

I like the guys who stand there with their arms spread until the count goes on or until the ball is passed! Now that cracks me up.

I also use the punch occaisonally for a charge and I sometimes dont raise my hand on an OOB, I just point!

Larks - NF Rebel!

I try to just use NFHS mechanics. The spread arms signal isn't one of them.

Z

At the VA state clinic, we were told specifically not to do this. The reason given is if they are closely guarded, you should have a count. No count = not closely guarded.

JRut, you know I love ya, so I'm not flaming you or anything (and maybe this is a separate thread), but why is it all about the playoffs?

I thought it was about the kids.

Now it can certainly be partially about the playoffs. I understand completely that there are officials for whom advancement is the main goal, and that's fine. Far be it for me and my 28 games ever to tell someone why they should or shouldn't officiate, but I've met plenty of officials for whom getting playoff games isn't the be all and end all and doesn't determine their feelings of self-worth as an official.

I know, you should always strive to be the best you can be, and have goals and all that. I just can't agree that it's all about getting playoff games.

If you're taught the "right" (subjective term) way to do something, you should do it because it's the right thing to do, not because the people who determine whether or not you get to call yourself a "playoff official" are watching and will mark you down if you don't - that's just my way of thinking. Your mileage may vary.

Again, JRut, I'm not coming down on you or trying to start something - your reasons and goals for officiating are yours and are shared by many, no doubt. But I'm sure there are others who don't chase that Holy Grail, and for whom just doing the best they can and trying to get it right is reward enough. I wouldn't call those people lazy no-accounts anymore than I'd call others playoff-chasers.

As for that mechanic (or non-mechanic), I've seen it once or twice (once recently), but it seems easier to me that if you're not counting, there's no closely-guarded situation. If doing the "Tember, his arms wide" bit is what the coaches need to see for them to be confident that you actually know Rule 4-10, that's their problem, not yours.

I use it.

I don't think of it as a mechanic - just a reminder and signal that the defender is off the ball too far. I also make a point NOT to hold the arms spread, just a quick "measure' and then drop 'em back down.

I view it as more of game management than anything.

NFHS does not have a "machanic" to warn players to "watch your hands" or "get outta the lane" either. Don't we all use those too?

I don't know why we would add it. If we're not visually counting, they are not closely guarded. Seems pretty simple ot me.

How does that mechanic help you manage the game?

What mechanic do you use to warn players? I don't have one for that either.

Z

But it is a mechanic and it doesn't belong in the high school game. When you use a non-fed mechanic and your partner doesn't, you end up looking out of balance. There is a mechanic for closely guarded - it's a visible count. When there is no visible count, then there is no closely guarded. Verbal warnings are not mechanics. This is no different than the tip signal. It only draws extra attention to ourselves and is just incorrect to use.

Many times, people complain about how inconsistent we are in repect to how we call the game. To me the mechanics are just like the lines on the court. They are specific, clear and black&white. There are no gray areas with our mechanics. All you have to do is use the specific mechanics in the book and everyone will at least be consistent in that respect.

Now that I've said that - how many different ways do people use to tell your partner that time is running out in the quarter?

Counts can be confusing
 

I can see your point, but I wouldn't say "it doesn't belong in a FED game".

As stated above, the counts can be confusing. Count while he's holding, then count while he dribbles, then suddenly he's NOT closely guarded so you stop, and then he's closely guarded and you start.

Many times the coach will say "start the count" or something to that effect. At those times, this signal is an easy way to let the coach know he's not closely guarded.

As the POE I believe was this year, the closely guarded was changed this year and I know some officials who will not count unless the defense can touch the offeense. By rule that is not correct.

Then the next night you have a guy calling it as suggested by rule, so it can be very confusing.

Thanks
David

Re: Counts can be confusing
 

We simply switch arms when changing from one count to another. What do you do when someone holds the ball for a few seconds, then dribbles the ball for a few seconds, then holds the ball for a few seconds? Count with right arm...spread arms wide to indicate a new count...count with left arm...spread arms to indicate new count...count with right arm? And that's not confusing?

I stand by my comment. It's not a Fed mechanic and doesn't belong in the game. It promotes inconsistency.

Re: Re: Counts can be confusing
 

If you would have read carefully what I stated:

<b>Many times the coach will say "start the count" or something to that effect. At those times, this signal is an easy way to let the coach know he's not closely guarded.</b>

That would be the only time I use the signal.

All other times, IMO, switching of the hands is fine.

Thanks
David

Coaches know if you're not counting then they're not close enough. I had a coach last night get on his girl because I stopped counting (I was at 4) when she backed away. "You had a 5, and you let it go.)
Probably one of the better freshman coaches in the area. He actually told me between games that he needs to get off the caffeine. If a coach is asking for a count, and she's not close enough, I'll just shake my head. Same thing I do when they ask me to call a phantom travel. He'll get the point.

That's exactly what I do - shake my head. I do that whenever a coach complains about a no-call when I had nothing. I don't think we need to be so concerned with appeasing a coach that we use mechanics that aren't in the book.

If I remember right, at one of our meetings this year they told us specifically not to use it.

Response:

Opening your arms is an indication (when used) that the player is not close enough. That can help manage the game.

I have no physical mechanic for the warnings - just a verbal.

Do all your partners do it as well? If not, how does that manage the game? When your partners don't use the same mechanics as you do, doesn't that cause confusion and put your partners at a disadvantage because it implies they aren't seeing what you are seeing? Consistency is good game management.

Do you think that the "tipped ball" signal or the "clean block" signal also helps manage the game? I don't.

A verbal warning is not the same as a mechanic.

Z

I agree with you completely philosophically, but I have used the signal once or twice as a communicator. Shaking the head is more acceptable, though, thanks for the suggestion.

Wheels turning - good discussion.

PROS - Streching out arm's is proactive. A signal to player, crowd and coach your on the play but distance scope not met...yet.

CONS - Stretched arms is not a NFHS mechanic and gets off balance with partner.

Shaking the head "no" concerns me. Isn't that reacting to the coach?

Absolutely it's reacting to the coach. I only do that when he is thinking a call should have been made and the play has not stopped so I have to focus on the game and can't look at him to either say "I hear you" or explain why I thought it was a no-call. It's a way of letting the coach know I heard what he said but did not consider it a violation/foul.

Think of it as communicating with the coach. He's got a concern about a closely guarded situation. He poses a question (okay, so maybe he's just whining, but still...). You shake your head. He understands.

What do you think the kids are focused on? The playoffs. I was when I was their age. The regular season was great, but we wanted to advance in the playoffs. I played high school sports in both Missouri and Illinois and it was all about what happen when we played in the playoffs. The regular season was geared to what we would do when the "real games" started. When my football team was undefeated in the regular season my senior year in HS, it was the biggest deal in our town and the surrounding community. We talked about it in a class reunion I attended a few years back. We lost in the first round and were bumped up to a higher class, and it was a really big disappointment for us as players to not make waves in the playoffs. None of that changes for these kids when they play now. The memories of the entire experience were great with our bond as young men and the memories we carry into adulthood, but we wanted to win a state title just like everyone else. Our regular season was great, but it was a huge disappointment to not do more.

You do not have to agree. I love working varsity games all season and getting some high profile games from time to time. It does not mean a whole lot unless you get some playoff games to top off that season. Those games are on another level and validate your season and make all the work worthwhile. All the mechanics I do or not do is about how it might affect how someone sees me and whether or not I will get playoff assignments. Our promotion process is about the playoffs. If you are not a Certified official in this state, you are not likely to work the playoffs. That is really the only reason you get promoted. And then if you are not Certified, it can affect if you are going to get varsity games let alone playoff games. You cannot even be rated in our system if you are not working varsity games. The rating system is not used to help guys become better officials (that is what camps and association meetings are for), it is used to evaluate officials for playoff consideration. The IHSA made sure that was the purpose of the ratings system and changed everything around to make sure that was the only reason it was used for.

Of course there are officials that do not want playoff opportunity. I am not saying that has to be your goal. But I can tell you in all my years of experience I very seldom come in contact that work varsity games and have no desire to work the playoffs. The only officials that are not that concerned are officials that have done multiple state finals and their days of working playoffs all the time have past. This is your first year working football and basketball. At this stage of your career you are not going to be eligible for playoff and opportunities related to getting playoff games. Once you are a 5+ year official and you have the opportunity to be a Certified official and your peers at similar years of experience as you are working games and you are not. Or if you are working playoff games and they are not, you will hear a lot of chatter about who got what and who did not get anything in the playoffs. I realize it is not popular to say that, but it is the straight up truth. It is the constant backdrop of conversation of officiating. This month is when the chatter gets hotter and hotter. All the playoff assignments are coming out within a month’s period of time and who is working them or who is working them is a constant topic of conversation. Even before I received my first playoff assignment I was asked all the time about my playoff assignments. When people found out that I was not Certified and working varsity contests, people were even more surprised and figured I had to be Certified and a playoff official.

Trust me on this one; it is all about the playoffs. Coaches do not keep their jobs at the varsity level if their programs are not winning playoff games or moving far into the playoffs. You might find a coach at the freshman level that has worked for 10-15 years at their particular school. You will not see a coach at a school that long if they are not advancing thru the playoffs consistently and winning Regionals and Sectionals. There is a reason you also see in every gym in the state Regional, Sectional and State Tournament accomplishments along side with conference titles in each sport. If it is not all about the playoffs, there sure is a lot of preoccupation from the coaches, players and fans. The officials are just a product of what the system deals with. What do you think all this private school/public school debate is over? It is all about the playoffs and who won state titles. That debate is not about which academic institution is better. It is about how the playoff structure or the class system should be changed in order to give teams an equal opportunity to advance or compete in the playoffs.

Peace

Hey Rut,
Was that last post in the wrong place? I didn't see how it had to do with the 5 second discussion. Don't confuse me on Fridays!

You obviously have not read this entire thread. ;)

Peace

Yep, I did skip the one post. I fell better now. No confusion.

Thanks, Jeff.

I just see the discussion of "it's all about the playoffs" with regard to how officials conduct themselves and "it's all about the playoffs" when it comes to the players' and coaches' hopes and dreams to be two totally separate discussions.

I would hope players and coaches would want to win within the context and framework of what the whole thing is really about (to me, anyway) - developing young men and women and providing them with positive experiences in their formative years as far as coaches are concerned, and learning important life skills, competing and having fun as far as players are concerned.

Yes, this is my first (second in basketball actually) year and I'm nowhere near even being considered for the playoffs but that's not my point - my point was that some people seem to make "getting a playoff game" their entire raison d'etre and they seem to focus on that to the exclusion of the context and framework of that the whole thing is really about (to me, anyway) - striving to do your best and apply the rules fairly and the mechanics correctly to provide a fair playing environment for the two teams of players who are going through the experiences I outlined above.

I figure if you do that, advancement and playoffs take care of themselves, and if they don't, they don't. But there seem to be some (and I'm not saying you're one) who seem to think it's all about them and how much they can accomplish and not about the competitors or the game itself. And at this stage of my career, I simply can't agree with that. If you do or someone else does or I will in the future after I've done this for a while, that's fine.

/hokiness over

OverAndBack,

If it was not about the playoffs, I would only work games in a 20 mile radius from my house and officiate games at any level all the time. I could still be the best and use all the proper mechanics. I could also work a lot of games, make more money than I do now officiating and I would save a lot of money on gas and time away from my family or job obligations. It is all about the playoffs. ;)

Peace

For you.

And that's cool.

We all have different agendas and yours and mine are no better or worse than anyone else's.

:)

I did not put a value judgment on what other people value. I stated that if you work the proper mechanics or accepted mechanics in an area, you will more than likely be rewarded with opportunities that might lead to playoff assignments. If you do not care, then it does not matter what mechanics you use. Of course then you will get games, but you will not work playoff games.

It is not about what my agenda is compared to your agenda. It is about what doing the proper mechanics are going to lead to. So if someone uses this mechanic and it is not accepted, you will not be seen in a good light and probably will be eliminated from playoff consideration. Or when you get a playoff game, your fellow officials will have a problem with your accomplishment.

Peace

My point was - what about doing the proper mechanics because they're the proper mechanics, not because "they" say you need to do it this way to get a playoff game?

What's wrong with reacting to the coach? It let's him know two things. First, that he can ask me questions. Second, that I am watching the play and saw the particular event he's asking about.

Either way, you're doing it because "they" tell you to. The identity of "they" is just the difference. You're saying to do it because the NFHS tells you to, but Rut's saying to do what your local, state, or regional association tells you to do.
The NFHS tells us to stand at the blocks during timeouts, but the IHSAA in Iowa tells us not to. Am I wrong to do it the way my governing body wants it done?

Re: Counts can be confusing
 

Amen. I've been at a number of HS games in the past 2-3 seasons where the girls were so close they could share the same uniform, and there was no count. So much for the rule philosophy rewarding good defense :D

I definitely think they should add the signal to the NF chart. It would be a lot more practical than the administrative rule changes they came out with last year. ;)

Re: Re: Counts can be confusing
 

I guess this thread would be the wrong place to talk about officials that haven't put their hand up on a single OOB call all season in about 25 varsity dates. Maybe I'll start another thread. Nah.

BTW, I noticed that about 80% of the OOB calls in the HS game on ESPN2 did not include the stop-clock mechanic.

Sometime I will find myself giving the safe signal. Maybe it's because I'm looking forward to baseball season, but I noticed I do it in reaction to certain plays. Even though it may not be a HS mechanic, it is a personal mechanic I use to let the coach , players, fans, my p's and everyone else know I saw it!

How many officials do not use the mechanic for no score? In the book it shows it called like a safe signal, but how many wave above their head?

I also wanted to mention about the stop clock mechanic. Half the time the timer can't see you anyway while coaches are allowed to stand, players in the way etc.. They stop the clock on the whistle, HS should go to the NCAA mechanic and forget the stop clock signal.

IMO

Often times the proper mechanic is based on what our state tells us to do, not what the NF tell us to do. If you do not do what the state tell us to do, it does not matter what the NF thinks about it. Over the years there have been many mechanics or procedures that were expected of the officials. Stick around awhile and you will see exactly what I am talking about. ;)

Peace

Re: Similar situation
 

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to add two comments about using the outstreched arms:

1) It is not an approved HFHS mechanic

2) Our interpreter said it best, don't use it (for reason #1) and that if you saw someone doing it off the court, it looks like "Duh, what's going on!"