I'm new to fourm so heres a quick background of myself. I'm 21 and a Student at KU, I have Officiated Volleyball for 5 years 3 with the KSHSAA (Kansas State Activities Association) and this is my first year of Basketball.

Anyhow, I was dooing a JV game the other night and the coach made some questionable comments to me, fairly loud, hit and miss on wether it encited the crowd. One was "go back to jr high" and "what are you dooing clapping" ( I was dooing the 'touch' sign for when the contact is on the ball). This coaches team was down some 25 pts most the way through the game, and we had a bunch of incidental contact on the court. I would have considered both of these comments innaporperate as they are questioning, mocking what I am calling. Anyhow, I did not give him his earned T because it would have hurt the players and not the coach, and afterall that is who we are out there for.

Just would like some general feedback on this situation, hasent "rested" with me yet.

Take care,

Kenny

Kenny,
Welcome to the forum.
1. When the coach told you to go back to jr. high, you definitely should have T'd him. Your failure to do so only hurts the kids more because it allows them to see that kind of behavior go unpunished. We are there not only for a basketball game, but for life lessons. That is the true reason for amatuer sports competition.

2. You should NOT use the tip signal or what the coach described as clapping for a clean block. I know that you sometimes see it on TV, but it is not an official NFHS signal (those which are shown on pages 76+77 of the NFHS Rules Book) and can only get you into trouble. What if your partner calls a foul on a play when you are giving that signal? What a mess. Stick with the official signals, and if a coach asks later what you saw on the play, you can demonstrate or explain to him during a break in the action.

Best wishes.

Thanks for the help. I picked up the "clean block signal" form other officials in my area, ill cut it out... I agree with you 100%. Anyhow, I guess it is just time till i get the confidence up to T on things like that. Only T'd a coach for yelling the F-Bomb at me, that was obvious.

Anyhow, thanks again,

Kenny

Go back to Jr. High is an automatic. It sounds like he was begging for one (for some reason a few coaches view this as a strategy). You should have taken care of him earlier. As I'm sure most on the board will tell you, if you walk out of the gym, get in the car and drive home and wish you had tapped him, you should have. Now, on the coaches side, you are a KU fan so you do deserve all the abuse you get! Did I mention I'm an Iowa State guy? Welcome to the board!

Kenny,
Yes to what Nevadaref said and to your understanding.

The *foul tip* should be reserved for diamond games.
Confidence will do a coupla things:<LI>Make it more likely you'll "T" when necessary<LI>Make it less likely the coaches will require a "T"

<HR color = pink>
Fact: Coaches can smell new meat.

By *foul tip* you mean T, and Diamond games??? dont quite follow, could you please explain.

Thanks,

Kenny

He's just saying the "foul tip" mechanic some use to show that the ball was tipped, should only be used in baseball and softball. The only time I ever use it on the court is to communicate to partners when a ball is coming from my area and goes out in theirs.

Runner takes a lead, pitcher looks in, get's his sign, comes set, checks the runner, here's the pitch, runner goes, batter swings but doesn't get good contact, ball ricochets to the backstop, umpire says "foul tip" runner has to go back to first.

Some people give the "clap" movement or the old UNLV shark clamp when indicating a block or held ball, others use the foul tip signal like a baseball umpire. Mick and I are telling you the same thing. It has no place in basketball. Don't use it.

BTW,
Do you work for the KU intramural program at all? I know that at most major colleges, there is a pretty good officials' training program that goes with working intramurals. The games can kind of suck, but its a great place to get some instruction. Just a suggestion.

The play you describe is a "foul" not a "foul tip", despite what the announcers, fans, coaches might say.

Any umpire who says (or indicates) "foul tip" on this should go back to Jr. High. ;)

I guess it's a good thing I don't umpire baseball/softball. BTW, did you mean the Jr High thing since the coach told Gozer to go back to Jr High? :-)

:)

One more thing about the foul tip motion. I aggree that it should never be used in a block no block situation. The one place that I think it can be used in a preventive way is on the play close to the 10 second line where defense tips the ball and ball goes backcourt. In this situation I will use the foul tip motion to let everyone in the gym know that I have seen a tip and that the offensive player has the right to go get the ball in backcourt without violation. To me this if done quickly keeps the coaches from jumping up as they see you give the signal and see that you have seen the play. Any other use is just asking for trouble.

CentralINRef

The coach will know I've seen the play when my whistle blows or doesn't blow. It's not my responsibility to tell the player whether he can touch the ball or not; just as it's not my responsibility to tell a player if I think he can still dribble.

Yes !
Foul tips do not belong on the hardwood.
mick

Welcome to the forum Kenny!

It takes a while, but eventually every official realizes that the "dreaded T" is just another type of foul, predicated primarily by either administrative or conduct issues. Use preventive officiating techniques to try to minimize the potential, but don't be afraid to call it when the conditions warrant.

I also officiate both volleyball and basketball. If during a match a volleyball coach had directed the same remark towards you, what would your response have been? For me, it would be an instant red card. Although they would like to think otherwise, the allowable conduct for basketball coaches isn't any different than for other sports. Try to catch it early with a warning, but if it continues, penalize.

On the other incident with the "F-bomb", was it simply said out of frustration, or directed specifically at you? In the first case, it's definitely a T, but if directed specifically at the official I'd strongly consider making it a flagrant T & sending him packing. Just my $0.02

Bullsh1t.

He earned not 1 but 2 T's. Send him on his way. If there's no assistant coach the game is over, he loses 2-0.

Good point if it was Volleyball, if the coach walked onto the court they would "see the rainbow of colors!" if not prolly a Red. Anyhow, read an article on the board about differences between bball and volleyball, very helpful. I just havent developed my BBall Spine yet but I am sure it will come.

I guess I shouldnt be to proud of this, but I did give the coach the "Stop Sign" earlier in the game. I guess it should have been an Auto-T on anything past that.

Rgarding the "Chomp" I will discontinue it's use also.

Funny I didnt pick up on the "Foul Tip" and "Diamond", I am going to do Softball and Baseball for the first time this year also.

Anyway, Thanks for all your input has really been helpful, I'm sure I will have more questions,

Take Care,

Kenny

When giving a T, you want to ask yourself, "Will this T make the game better?" If the answer is yes, then give it. One of the ways in which T'ing the coach can make the game better is that he may stop focusing on the officiating and go back to coaching his team. That is a very desirable outcome. If that doesn't work, then perhaps his absence will help the team. You'll find a lot of stories here about how that has been the case.

The one time I tossed a coach, the team rallied and decided to play ball instead of *****ing and moaning. Guess what, they started to close the gap. If I had thrown the coach earlier, they might have come back and won the game. That, obviously, is not the reason for doing it, just an illustration of how taking care of business actually helped the team rather than hurting it.

I hate the "tip" signal. What does that do? If it is a tip, block, tap, slap, etc and all ball then so what? If it is a foul then the whistle stops the play.
I learned that the stupid way by signalling the "tip" at the same time my partner had the foul. He was right, I was wrong.

As for the coach...calmly give him a T. My boys coach decided to belittle the official by telling his team to "just take the ball, he ain't going to call anything" He did this during a timeout and loud enough for the entire gym to here. This is a city league and 11 yr old boys playing. The officials were some of the high school jv players.

Had a talk with the coach afterwards about professionalism and setting a good example for the boys, then had a talk with my son about how a coach should conduct himself.

My point here is to stop the coach now.

my 37 cents

Another criteria that I personally use is "Will this T make <b>me</b> feel better?" :D

This mean I have to call you the next time I fell the urge to T?

Yes.

OK, I got you on speed dial now....

1-800-EAT-SH!T

Don't worry, with time it'll come. You just need to discover your limits.

I remember in my first year reffing, I was too scared to talk to coaches let alone T them up. But now... ;)

Yeah...and just think kid...when you go through puberty you'll really be a bad ***! :D

Helluva idea. Instead of puking on a coach's shoes, you can pop a zit on 'em instead. Another great game management tool brought to you by ref18. :D

LMAO! :D

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/wu...smiley-022.gif

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/la...smiley-014.gif