I jinxed myself today by insinuating I was good at game management. Tonight I proved I still have some tough nights and that every situation can't really be anticipated.

I'm going to post this in a number of parts. Here's Part I:

Boys varsity about 80 miles from the ranch.

The home coach is one of those 35-year coaches who apparently rides everyone who he hasn’t had working for him for 20 seasons. So I was fresh meat tonight. Not part of the story, but an interesting bit of background information. Duane, when you read this, you've whacked this guy when we worked together there last time, I believe.

We take the court, as required, at 20:00 on the clock. I’m the referee, so in the 2-man system, I am supervising the visiting team. At about the 17-minute mark, the center for the visiting team goes in, goes above the rim, and puts the ball in the basket. It’s close, but in my opinion, it’s not a dunk. No forceful action and never even came close to the rim (I recognize that rim isn't in the definition of dunk, but it does provide an indicator of how "forcefully" the ball was put in the hoop. (Note: My partner agreed later in the pregame when we talked that it wasn't a dunk. He happened to turn towards my basket right as "it" happened.)

Well, the home coach thought it was a dunk and start jumping up and down in front of his bench. Now, mind you, we are 17:00 before the warmup period ends.

I decide to talk to the coach before he has an aneurysm and do some preventive officiating as well. I walked over to the coach and told him that it wasn’t a dunk.

He starts in and after a brief listen I stop him (mainly because I have other business to attend to) and tell him that we aren’t starting the game that way on something like that.

I then go the player and talk to him briefly and told him to knock it off and then go to the coach (I’ve had a few of his games and he’s pretty reasonable) and told him his player’s put me in a hole already and to please tell him to knock it off. The coach goes right to the player and talks to him.

I then go back across the court and we get the captains for the meeting at about 13:00.

After the captains’ meeting, I go to the table as required to check the books, brief the scorer/timer and check the game ball for proper shape/air. As I’m checking the home book, the home coach comes over to the table with a rule book turned to the definition of “dunk” and starts in again about the pregame incident. At that point I say, “Coach, that wasn’t a dunk — you really want to start out this way?” The coach said, “I want you to follow all the rules" and throws the book on top of the scorebook I’m checking and walked away.

That's how my night started. I should've stayed home, I guess. Please feel free to comment, guess what happened next, etc. I'll post more tomorrow. I need to contemplate a few reports I have to write before I finish the story and try to get some constructive feedback.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 01:39 AM]

Rich,

You did great. The "spirit and intent" of that rule is to protect the equipment and one of those little "baby dunks" (if it was even that) is nothing, IMHO. With a rim rattler, we have no choice, but you had a choice and used good common sense. Telling the kid to knock it off was good too. Pray tell, what happened after that?

Z

I cant wait for the rest of this. Seriously.

Of course, if "filling out reports" means in your jurisdiciton what it means in mine then it means you not only whacked him, you tossed him and have to fill out that paperwork.

Clark

Great detective work, Clark. My only question is, can we tell just from what's posted so far how much, if any, of the game that coach saw?

Let's put it this way.

I'd have started the game shooting free throws.:D

Why do I have a funny feeling they started the game without a head coach.

Which would mean the board would read:

Clark

However, I did say it was a tough night. More later.

Rich, is your day job in marketing, promotions, Harry Potter book publisher or something? ARGH!

I know what happened. You noticed his player had 00 on his jersey but was listed as 0 in the book....

Nice Job Rich
 

Rich so far so good, I see nothing wrong with what you have done in the prologue to the story.

"may not attempt to influence an official's decision."

Correct me if I'm wrong, the spirit of the no dunking in warmups rule is so that we don't end up with a broken goal and now we have a postponed game. How does home coach think the described stitch is going to break the goal? If he wants you to go by the rule book, does he want the 3 seconds call every 4th trip down the court?

BTW, this is the first time I've heard of a coach with a rule book.

Tolerance
 

I think you handled it by the book. (And exactly the way I would have handled it) I don't care what the coach says, if I don't say its a dunk, then... it's not a dunk.

The rule does start with grasp the basket then goes on to dunk or stuff. Also, isn't this rule put in place to keep a player from getting hurt before the game begins or to keep from tearing up a goal before the game etc.,

However, the coach was looking for trouble and I'm sure before the night was over he was in trouble.

I wouldn't have started the game with a T, but he would have a very very tight leash the rest of the night.

Thanks
David

Is that the spirit and intent of the rules? I thought it may have had something to do with intimidation.

Writing of such (this probably has been covered under another thread - sorry if it has), has anyone been told that the teams have to stay within their half of the court during warmups? I'm specifically referring to the situation where one of the teams run laps around the entire court while the other team is warming up. Our association has told us to restrict them to their half of the court.

I believe that was a POE in Illinois last year. I still haven't seen anyone enforce it though.

And how is a little "drop psuedo-dunk" intimidating? Don't look for trouble.

Z

Coaches with rule books
 

We had a crew here where a coach brought out a rule book in the middle of the game. I told them they should've walked over, turned it to 10.5 and said you're gonna have plenty of time to read this tonight coach, good bye!!

LOL!! Classic...

:D

If the coach intends on getting a T that night, I would rather he alert me of his intentions before the game begins. Sounds like he was doing you this favor.

[Edited by lrpalmer3 on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 11:48 AM]

Sounds like you handled it like I would've Rich. 85 miles? You must've almost been in my neck of the woods...

[/B][/QUOTE]

And how is a little "drop psuedo-dunk" intimidating? Don't look for trouble.

Z [/B][/QUOTE]

No, I understand the little "drop psuedo-dunk." I'm talking about the slam, bam, Shaquille O'Neal type dunk! And, I fully agree on not to look for trouble.

And how is a little "drop psuedo-dunk" intimidating? Don't look for trouble.

Z [/B][/QUOTE]

No, I understand the little "drop psuedo-dunk." I'm talking about the slam, bam, Shaquille O'Neal type dunk! And, I fully agree on not to look for trouble. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. If it's a rim-rattler, you don't have much choice.

Z

Rich
 

Sounds good to me, but since I wasn't there, I can't personally comment on was it or wasn't it. The important part is that both of you saw it and both of you agreed that it was not a dunk. Case closed.

Simply put, tell the coach it was a judgment thing and that the rulebook in some of these cases are merely guidelines to follow.

Lastly, despite what he thinks, it is your interpretation, and you are doing the game, not him.


goose

Re: Rich
 

He ended up getting a technical with 1:17 left in the fourth quarter of a three-point game.

He wasn't well behaved the whole game, but I didn't want to look like I was out for bear after the pregame incident, so I kept him on a slightly longer leash than I should've.

I was the trail putting the ball in play on the baseline for the home team. The ball was thrown poorly towards midcourt and the defender was about to catch the ball when a player from the home team swooped in and clipped the home player's arm. My partner was behind this play and didn't have a good angle, so I hit the whistle, closed, and made the call myself. It was a call that had to be made -- if we would've left this go, home would've gotten an unwarranted possession down three with 1:17 left in the game.

The home coach requests and my partner grants a full timeout. Partner reports and is intercepted by this coach. Coach spends the first thirty seconds of this timeout at center court arguing with my partner (not about the quality of the call, but that *I* made the call). Partner was trying to get him back to his huddle and partner told me afterwards he didn't realize how far out on the floor he was during this scene. At this point, I left my block and started walking towards this scene and called a technical (we can go into why I called this and my partner didn't later, but let's just say I'm much more of a veteran than my partner, although he does a terrific job officiating).

So this is why I feel terrible. 1:17 left in a 3-point game and now we have four free throws and possession. They sink 2 of the 4 and the game ends with a five point margin.

If I had to do this all over again, we would've started the game with a seatbelt and free throws (and not because of the supposed dunk, either). That's what I'm kicking myself over this morning. Either that or not calling a technical earlier in the game.

But like they say, I'm still learning. And after saying I don't call technicals often, I've called two in two nights. Same school -- girls coach on Monday and boys coach last night.


[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 2nd, 2005 at 12:19 PM]

Re: Re: Rich
 

Rich -- sounds like you learned your lesson. NExt time you'll do better. That's the most any of us can do!

Re: Re: Rich
 

I'm sorry Rich, this is all my fault.

That is much nicer than telling you, "I told you so!" :D

SECTION 4 BENCH TECHNICAL
The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:

a. Disrespectfully addressing an official.
b. Attempting to influence an official's decision.
c. Using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.
d. Disrespectfully addressing, baiting or taunting an opponent.

NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.

e. Objecting to an official's decision by rising from the bench or using gestures.
f. Inciting undesirable crowd reactions.
g. Team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorer's table.
h. Being charged with fighting.

What does this have to do with anything? This is all about the head coach, not bench personnel that the head coach is responsible for.

10-4 applies to the head coach too, 10.4.1.C.

Now quoting the rules without saying why you quoted them is another matter.:D

I would not have started the game shooting free-throws. I also would not let a coach put a rule book in my face.

First, I would ask the coach to let me finish my duties at the table before we discussed his concern.

Then, I would listen to what he had to say and give him a chance to "vent". When he is finished, I would tell him that I am aware of the rules and do not need him/her to show me the rule book.

Finally, I would say that in my opinion the young man did not dunk the ball and return to my position opposite table.

I would also give this coach a little more rope than normal at the start of the game because of the situation. I would let him be a little more vocal and animated on the sideline but, I would not let it contniue on for too long before I warned him.

Re: Coaches with rule books
 

Of course, I was one of the officials on this game! :D Seriously! It's been an eventful season for me. :)

The coach was upset with one of my partner's decisions and had just had a player and the team manager killed in a car accident the previous week, so I stayed out of it when she brought the rules book to the table at the end of the first half.

Under normal circumstances, I T the coach for this.

I would have called a T on the head coach in Rich's situation too, and I also don't believe that qualifies as a dunk.

Bringing a rule book out- or puttinging it in my face is a T every time. Period. The coach is looking for a fight and it is time to set him down. Shorter string rather than longer. You got the call right and shouldn't be embarrised by it. Take control of the game. This is not a time for preventive messures. The rule has been broken and it is time for enforcement.

Let me understand -- A coach who complains gets MORE "rope" than a coach who doesn't? It seems to me that the coach who complains is using up his rope, not getting more.

I agree. You're giving him more rope because he wanted a cheap technical? Not me. I'll give him a seatbelt, but no more rope.

Hindsight is always 20-20. That is what we also call experitence. Learn from it and be a better prepared if it happens again.

The information about the accident and a killed player is something I would have talked about during my pregame. When I talk about coach/team tendencies I try to get a feel for what type of game to expect before I walk out onto the court. In this case, I would have expected a very emotional game.

And that's what you got from beginning to end. At some point prior to the 4th quarter, the coach should have been warned. I would not let his behavior continue that long.

I still think you did the right thing by not giving him a T during pre-game.

If I am reading this thread correctly, these are 2 different games. Regarding Rich's game, I personnaly would not give the coach "more rope" -- would probably be less rope. You explained yourself and he did not want to accept the explaination. His tough luck.