Grabbing a shirt is most definitely NOT an flagrant. I'd even have a hard time calling it an intentional unless it is on a play like a breakaway where the offended looses a completely unobstructed layup. Coming off of a screen, I'd think a standard hodling foul would be best. Why have the holding foul at all if grabbing someone is an intentional.

What's the difference between grabbing someone's shirt to keep them from moving and wrapping your arms around someone's body? I'm talking about a blatant grabbing, not just an accidental grab of the shirt and quickly letting go.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker Any coach, any good coach anyways, wants to win. Winning is their "flutter of thrill" (I'm assuming coaches above some level btw).

I think for the situation posted originally, you're assuming too much. That coach wasn't saying how he wants the game called to make a good game, and because he knows the rules, and wants them enforced. He's implying that he doesn't want it called on his team, because he knows how to get an advantage out of it. If the other team got away with it, he'd be all over the refs about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by rainmaker Any coach, any good coach anyways, wants to win. Winning is their "flutter of thrill" (I'm assuming coaches above some level btw). I think for the situation posted originally, you're assuming too much. That coach wasn't saying how he wants the game called to make a good game, and because he knows the rules, and wants them enforced.

That's exactly what I'm saying he's not concerned with.

He's concerned with winning. Hard to win if you can't predict how the game will be called.

2 cents again
 

Some of us older guys have suffered the pains of the mistakes I have seen in this thread. I will say that with a little word spoken here and there, one can prevent or at least give one an out if a player commits one of these acts.

Inbounding with pressure:

I always inform the player if it is a spot throw-in or if he has the baseline to run. For the defensive player applying pressure, I always tell him or her not to reach over, i.e. break the plane. Now, if either violates, I feel I have done my part in attempting to prevent an unwanted violation by either team.

Shirt pulling:

This is a pet peeve of mine, especially in close games with under a minute to play. Not that I won't call it earlier, but just that this is when it usually occurs. If I am the non inbounding official, I always approach the lineup and verbally state, "do not hold or pull a players shirt." Again, if a player then proceeds to pull a shirt as his player is coming off a pick for example, I feel perfectly justified in awarding an intentional foul since there was no intent whatsoever to make a play for the ball.

If the coach goes ballistic, at least I can tell him I warned the players against pulling or grabbing anothers shirt.

One thing though, and that is I have to see the shirt pulled away from the body, and I'm sure all of us have seen the jersey get pulled clearly away from the body. In other words, everyone that is near me will see the same thing.

I would also agree that in the near future, something will be done, because it needs to be done, concerning un-intentional fouls at the end of a game to merely stop the clock and put the team at the line. Clearly, many of these fouls should be intentional, but I've not met many that would or do call it that way including myself. I often wonder why we as officials do not call more of these types of fouls intentional instead of just common fouls when it is clear they are indeed intentional. Many don't even involve a player with the ball either. Oh well, more rambling.

Again, some of these things can be prevented, and some can not, but for me, it's easier to sell the call if I tell the coach that the player(s) were warned previously.

What bothers me more are these interpretaions by assignors who BTW, usually work for the coaches even though many were officials at one time. When these people work for the coaches, what does one expect? The coaches will tell them how they want the games called, which in my opinion, is generally bad for the game.


goose

Re: 2 cents again
 

At our association meeting last night, someone asked the question about how the association wants us to call intentional fouls at the end of the game. The commissioner/assignor made it very clear that if the coach is verbally telling their players to foul and then a player grabs/pushes/holds with no attempt to play the ball, he wants us to call the intentional foul. He also said that if the player made an attempt to play the ball and fouled, it should not be considered an intentional foul.

I have called one intentional foul this season at the end of the game like this. Luckily the kid made it an easy call for me because he basically tackled the kid with the ball. But it's a tough one to make in one of those borderline situations - that's why they pay us the big bucks, I guess. :)

I think it just shows that this coach knows the officials in the area knows who calls what. He's probably run that play with a bunch of different officials and the only one to ever call him on it is so and so. Knowing that, I would be willing to bet that he doesn't run that play when so and so is officiating. That is not implying how he wants the game to be called but saying that he knows the officials and how they work the game.

This is a perfect example of one of the biggest problems in officiating and that is consistency. If EVERY official made that call, the coach wouldn't be running that play anymore. The reason he runs it is because, yes it gives his team an advantage and he knows that not everyone is going to call the violation.

It is the same in every sport. If I'm coaching baseball and I know that the plate umpire will give the pitchers a few inches on the outside part of the plate, I'm going to have my pitcher throw it there, and tell my batters to be aggressive out there.

Most rebounds would involve an intentional foul then. A1 boxing out, wraps arms back around opponent to keep him from moving to the ball...that's a common foul.

Grabbing the shirt should be no different than grabbing the arm or putting the arm across the opponents body to delay/hold him.

It becomes intentional depending on context. Did the held player have an unobstructed line to a near-certain bucket? Or was the level of contact excessive?

I guess we just look at this differently. I liken grabbing the shirt to be the same as grabbing someone's body. More like grabbing ahold of someone's wrist and not letting them go. The typical behavior of players doesn't fall into this category in my view of it. But purposely grabbing and holding any part of a person, to me, is crossing the line into intentional territory.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Originally posted by rainmaker Any coach, any good coach anyways, wants to win. Winning is their "flutter of thrill" (I'm assuming coaches above some level btw). I think for the situation posted originally, you're assuming too much. That coach wasn't saying how he wants the game called to make a good game, and because he knows the rules, and wants them enforced. He's implying that he doesn't want it called on his team, because he knows how to get an advantage out of it. If the other team got away with it, he'd be all over the refs about it.

And sometimes this is what they mean by be consistent, call it consistently on them not on us.