I am new to this forum and so far I appreciate everyone's feedback. Being emotional and forthright about officiating is part of why I like doing it.

I just wanted to solicit some opinions on a mechanic that I do. It gets mixed reviews from some coaches and positive responses from my partner(s).

I have the ability to delay my whistle until I see that the goal is good or not. Whether it is a hit on the forearm or a player control or whatever the play.

The response I get from coaches sometimes is, "Kinda late wasn't it?" Of course my standard answers are, "I saw the whole play and I had to go get it." or "Better late than never." or "I believe my partner got blocked out and needed help coach"
I always ask my partner(s) if they are OK with my delayed whistles because I seem to have 5 or 6 in a HS school game and 2 or 3 in my college game.

I haven't received anything negative from a partner and only an occasional, " . . .could you call it when it happens next time please . . ." from a coach.

What do you all think about a delayed whistle?

Thanks in advance.
TR

Whistle when the foul occurs. Nothing wrong with the ball going through after the whistle. Otherwise it looks like you're deciding whether or not to call the foul based of if the ball goes in or not.

If the shot is made more difficult by the contact, it's a foul whether or not it goes in. Delayed whistles are good, but I'm delaying it to see if the shot was affected; not whether the shot goes in. Hell, half the time I don't even know if the shot goes in.

Rather than call it a delayed whistle, we refer to them as "patient". I see nothing wrong with a patient whistle when the action is in the grey coverage area, or when you are calling something a little out of your primary. If every whistle you blow is patient, however, you will look a little less confident in your game to many coaches. For example, on a block/charge call I like to be right on it with my whistle because you know one team is probably not going to like the outcome so I want to look as sure as I can.

Good point. I'd like to add something. On the block/charge call in a dual coverage area WITH a double whistle:

Make eye contact with your partner

Preliminary signal should be a fist in the air (stop the clock)

After the eye contact, the calling official (decided in pre-game) should immediately complete the appropriate signal.

Nothing looks worse than having two officials with different rulings = blarge!

And a great point about eye contact, especially working 3 man.

I got lucky on this last night. I'm T far side, partner is L table side. A1 starts at arc just barely on table side, and heads into the lane, jumps, and plows into B1. I didn't even hear my partner's whistle due to my own, but fortunately, we both had our hands on the back of our necks. I think it looked good, but any officials in the crowd had to be cringing inside like I was.

[Edited by Snaqwells on Feb 1st, 2005 at 04:57 PM]

I didn't even hear my partner's whistle due to my own, but fortunately, we both had our hands on our necks.

Isn't giving the choke sign on the court a little unsportsmanlike? You should have t'd yourselves up (notice I used the term "t'd" instead of whack for obvious reasons).

Welcome to the forum.

I love a patient whistle. I'm ok with a <i>real </i>delayed whistle once in a while, especially when it's a "gotta go get it" call in someone's secondary coverage area.

For a high school game, I'm not real thrilled about a whistle that is so late that it's obvious that the official was waiting to see if the hoop went in or not. I know a college assignor around here that hates "and ones," but I don't think that's appropriate for an NFHS game. Just my opinion.

Z

Thanks
 

Thanks everybody - I believe patient does sound better than delayed.
Thanks again.
TR

Should have seen the free throw shooting. ;)

Sometime a "patient whistle" may appear to be an "indecisive whistle". (Don't have spellchecker)

IMO

Call what you see when you see it. Or Don't!

i agree a patient whistle can be looked at as indicisive...and you dont want to lose credibility...call what you see when you see it...its like a reaction..

It's a rhythm thing.

Obvious calls and block/charge should be contact..whistle.

Advantage/disadvantage and grey area calls can be contact...whistle. These are patient whistle calls.

The only truely "delayed" whistles should be help whistles in secondary areas, where we are reacting to our partner and not the contact. That is when we have the "late" whistle, contact..partner, nope..whistle.

I can only speak for my area and somewhat for the original posters area. A patient whistle is something I do knowingly and am in total control of. It depends on time, severity and situations among other factors. In some game situations I wouldn't dare to do this because I would just need to look for security as soon as I make the call. I would do this in a game on any level except college. IMO a college evaluator and/or assigner does not want this to be a habitual thing. Also the theory of just getting it right or helping your partner in their area is something that is talked about more than it should be put into practice. Once again my opinion. I'm dedicated enought to officiating that I want to work to get my own angles in my primary and will be pissed at myself if I continually need help in my area.

I had more to say but I have to go paint! :D 5 or 6 in a high school game is too many TR.

Last night in a BV Game, I really had a patient (no late) whistle. I was in the lead position and I saw some minor contact on the shooter. He had released the ball on a short shot, three footer. My arm and fist had gone up in the air instinctively, however, no whistle. Don't ask, I don't know why. This is the first time this has happened to me in seven years of officiating. I can tell you this. The shot seemed to be up there forever. I closed down on the player and took a peak up at the rim (also something I never do). The ball bounced twice on the rim and came off without going in. I blew my whistle and made the call.

Analysis: I was unsure about the call. The contact was minor and it may have effected the shot. What I can't tell you is what my reaction would have been if the basket was scored. Hopefully, I would have still blown that "late" whistle. BTW, the coaches did not react to the whistle. It was probably only a second or two late, however, something that was out of the norm to me. With the arm up in the air, I'm sure the coach would have had a fit, had I not blown the whistle. Rightfully so!

With your patient whistle needs to come a patient fist!

[/B][/QUOTE]

With your patient whistle needs to come a patient fist! [/B][/QUOTE]

Juulie, believe me, I know! I don't know what came over me. I was actually debating (in milliseconds) wether or not to pull it back down. It would have been a bad move to do so.

Couple comments:

5 or 6 noticeable delayed whistles per game sounds pretty high.

I've also heard that college coordinators hate the "and one" call.

They (all the cool kids) say that the time it takes to judge the effect of a foul decreases and decreases with more experience, and that's why you MIGHT have ONE noticeably late whistle in a college game on TV.

A patient whistle is good... sometimes.

If you have a "bang-bang" play you have to sell it. You have to show confidence by having a loud whistle with strong mechanics almost immediately.

From coaches and fans perspectives, a patient whistle does seem like an indecisive whistle. But to the trained official, I hope we all agree that if the contact does not have an affect on the play we should not call a foul (otherwise, we would be calling fouls everytime there was contact on the court).

When coaches have said that my call was late, I've replied "It was the right call".

"I believe my partner got blocked out and needed help coach"


I don't think I would use this response, or one like it. Maybe in the heat of the moment I would, but I hope not. If I (a) make a call or (b) don't make a call, I most often say something like (a) "That's the way I saw it" or (b) "That's not the way I saw it"

I just think saying your partner got blocked out is open to too much negative interpretation. Sure, your partner could have been blocked out due to no fault of their own...but someone could also easily infer that your partner was blocked out because they weren't where they should have been. (This is an area I'm really working on for myself.:) Having good angles and hustling to see the play.) I sure wouldn't want my partner telling a coach they needed to help me because I was blocked out...even if they did because I was.

I'm going to take this opportunity to give those here on the forum a little info on the original poster for this thread. Almost Always Right is a personal friend of mine and we have worked quite a few games together as we are in the same local association.
He has an impressive officiating resume.
He is one of our current board members, worked the 4A Boys State Final last season, the 4A Boys Regional Final the year before that, was voted the #1 official in our association by his peers this year, will certainly work both the Regional and State tournaments again this year, and can FLAT OUT officiate.

So, although he is new to this forum and sounds somewhat less than stellar in this particular post, don't be fooled. He does know what he is doing on the court.

He is also quite genuine in the questions that he asks and the answers that he provides.
He is definitely someone who should be taken seriously when it comes to HS basketball officiating.

I was thrilled to see him join this forum!

His extra-patient whistle can run with me anytime...but he has to move to Indiana!

I worked the boys 3A state championship with him the year before last. He can go. He is basically a college ref that lives someplace without many college opportunities. I also heard Nevadaref is doing really good too.

P.S. Indy_ref, I have a second cousin named Dominique James from Richmond IN. Have you heard of him? I think he is going to Marquette. It is probably hard to win Mr. Basketball with Oden and McRoberts there.

tomegun and Nevadaref always see the best in people.
While I appreciate their comments, I am on here to bring up some things that I question in myself and maybe colleagues around me won't be completely honest for whatever the reason.
I knew I would get some good feedback from this forum on this issue. That, " . . .my partner got blocked out . . ." line doesn't look very good on paper, but I say it with a great deal of charm! ;-p

Oddly enough, he came from Indiana! :)

Almost Always Right...

My 2 cents:

Down here (in GA) they say often: "A late whistle is a great whistle."

One of the college assignors I work for NEVER and he means NEVER wants an "and 1". The only way you can avoid that is with a patient whistle.

The high school association I am a member of is loaded with college officials. Our assignor here is preaching the "patient whistle" to see if the shot goes in. After patient whistles, I have been asked if I was waiting to see if the shot was going to go. My answer "Of course."

I am no expert but in my neck of the woods, you seem to be doing it just as my assignors want it done.

I know a COLLEGE assignor that hates "and 1's" too. For the college game, maybe the players are strong enough and can handle contact enough for that to be appropriate.

At a high school game though, judging a shooting foul by whether or not the shot goes in as asking for trouble, IMHO. Your just setting kids (and I emphasize <b> kids </b>) up for frustration and possible problems if you are allowing significant contact to be ignored just because the ball goes through the basket.

Z

It's a good patient whistle, IMO, when you are trying to determine whether some contact put the person receiving the contact at a disadvantage. Perfect example would be a bump in the back on a rebound -- if the player clears the ball pass on the call unless it's a major BUMP, but get the call if it puts the rebounder at a disadvantage or off-balance, etc.

I think the OP is taking this philosophy too far. Not calling fouls near the hoop when the ball goes in and/or on successful drives tells the defense that they can afford to play somewhat reckless -- if it goes in, no harm, no foul. If it doesn't go in, then the foul was "successful."

I will agree that there are times when the contact is so close to the ball being laid in that I will pass on the foul as the whistle would have to come after the ball went through the hoop -- but that only seems to happen a lot in boys games where the players are really agressive and are able to get up at or above the rim.