I hope I can explain this so it can be understood, and I am sorry if this is an issue that has alreay been addressed.

A1 is dribbling the ball in his backcourt moving toward the frontcourt. B1 steps up to guard him right at the division line. A1 puts his left foot down in the frontcourt and he bounces the ball a time or two in the front court. A1's right foot remained on the floor in the backcourt. Then, in an effort to spin away from the defender, A1 reverse pivots and moves his right foot from the backcourt into the frontcourt while simultaneously (more or less) moving the ball back across the division line. The next time the ball hit the floor it was in the backcourt. The right foot landed in the frontcourt discernibly before the ball landed in the backcourt. (It was during a dribble so it wasn't that much before.) The left foot stayed in the frontcourt. I called backcourt because I thought the ball location was frontcourt until it hit in the backcourt. Other local officials think the location of the dribble was already in the backcourt when the ball crossed the division line, but before hitting the floor, or that I cut it too fine and should not have made the call. Well, what do you think?

Rick

I would have to go with Backcourt if I had the definate knowledge that it sounds like you had. If not definate knowledge whether all three had frontcourt status then hold your whisle.

Both feet were in frontcourt and the ball had frontcourt status. When the ball came down in backcourt you have a violation.

The ball crossing the plane before the foot came down has nothing to do with its status.

For a dribbler, the ball has backcourt status until all three of the following are in the front court at the same time: Left foot, Right foot, and the ball. This applies to a dribbler only. Any two can be in the front court or backcourt and the ball still has backcourt status and the dribbler can legally retreat to the backcourt.

I would give credit if I knew who said it but I don't: You can dribble all the way to the baseline and back in to the backcourt while hopping on one foot if you were dribbling when you crossed the halfcourt line.

You should then whistle a 10 second violation on the dribbler.

I would not have whistled a BC violation by your description, but I was not there.

[Edited by SamIAm on Jan 31st, 2005 at 02:48 PM]

This is not a violation. Both feet and the ball must be in the FC without any of the three still touching the BC.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 31st, 2005 at 02:51 PM]

I wouldn't make that call if I were you.

The rule assumes a player who is walking/running normally on two feet. This player is NOT in the BC. The 10 second count better stop when it's obvious that he is no longer in the BC.

The two feet were in the frontcourt and the ball had frontcourt status before the ball went down in the backcourt...how is that not a violation?

Tony what are you thinking?
 

Ball and one foot are in frontcourt.

Last foot goes into frontcourt.

Next dribble of the ball is in backcourt.

Tony/BBR How is that not a BC violation?

Did I read this differently than you did?

Back court violation. Ball and foot in front court and one foot in back court. As soon the player lifts the foot in the backcourt the ball has front court status. As I understand it the foot was lifted and the ball was then dribbled in the backcourt. Backcourt violation.

Not if the player was still dribbling. Need both feet and the ball completely touching frontcourt in order for a dribbler to be in frontcourt.

Has Smitty as soon as the foot is lifted the ball has front court status. See case 4.4.1

Case book play 4.4.1 isn't applicable. It pertains to a player holding a ball, not dribbling.Rule 4-4-6 is the applicable rule.

True but same principle applies as it pertains to ball location.

Has Smitty as soon as the foot is lifted the ball has front court status. See case 4.4.1 [/B][/QUOTE]Case book play 4.4.1 isn't applicable. It pertains to a player holding a ball, not dribbling.Rule 4-4-6 is the applicable rule. [/B][/QUOTE]

True but same principle applies as it pertains to ball location. [/B][/QUOTE]No, the same principle does not apply. That's why "holding the ball" and dribbling the ball" are governed by two completely different ball location rules:
1) "Holding the ball" is covered in R4-4-1,2&4
2) "Dribbling the ball" is covered in R4-4-6.

I will call it(a 10-second violation) whenever he/she hops back to the backcourt.

Even if it is NOT yet 10 seconds?

I guess it is possible to start dribbling in the backcourt then hop all the way to the baseline and back to the backcourt (still hopping) within 10 seconds. But then you still have to make back into the front court before that same 10 second count ends. Heaven help you if someone starts guarding you anywhere in the scenario. I don't see much of a risk in that happening within a 10 second count. I'll try it next time I have the opportunity and report back.

By the way I tried repeating the steps in the orginal sitch. It isn't easy to step forward with your back foot while reversing a dribble.

First, it's an assinine play. Don't know why we're even discussing it.

Second, when he's hopping and dribbling in the FC, he's in the FC.

Thrid, if he hops back into the BC, you have a BC violation, not a 10 second violation.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 31st, 2005 at 06:51 PM]

Re: Tony what are you thinking?
 

But why was the original scenario not a BC violation. What did I read different from you?

I agree an assinine play, but I can back up a 10 second count violation by rule.

You wrote, "You can dribble all the way to the baseline and back in to the backcourt while hopping on one foot if you were dribbling when you crossed the halfcourt line."

So, you're telling me that if a player hops on one foot, while dribbling the basketball, crosses the division line, hops to the endline, you can call a 10 second violation if he doesn't put his other foot on the floor in the FC?

You're nuts.

Yep. And by rule you can judge that a player holding the ball and hopping on the non-pivot foot all over the front court is legal.

The finite words in the rules don't specifically cover the infinite possibilities -- some common sense is needed. Unfortunately, common sense ain't so common.

I'm nuts? You are the one asking me for clarifications on a play you said was assinine, I agreed it was assinine and listed a farfetched play where it could happen, but never will.
In the original FARFETCHED-ASSININE play where I described the dribbler hopping around, I posted I would blow my whistle once the dribbler returned to the backcourt.
Either way that is a violation, be it BC or 10-Second.
Man I wish I knew who originally post that scenario on this forum!

I did not post nor would I actually call a violation for your post So, you're telling me that if a player hops on one foot, while dribbling the basketball, crosses the division line, hops to the endline, you can call a 10 second violation if he doesn't put his other foot on the floor in the FC?, in fact that sounds like a bit of
mis-information that should not be posted on this board. ;)

So, you're telling me that if a player hops on one foot, while dribbling the basketball, crosses the division line, hops to the endline, you can call a 10 second violation if he doesn't put his other foot on the floor in the FC?

[/B][/QUOTE]Legal, as long as he can rub his stomach counter-clockwise at the same time. Rule 11-1-3.

I'd disagree with that one. When a player hops (read jumps), it is a travel:

"If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

However, the backcourt status while hopping is, while it will never occur, correct. The 3-pionts rule is pretty specific that the dribbling player is in the backcourt until both feet (and the ball) touch in the frontcourt.