1st sitch...Home team (12-0) down by one with 22 secs. left. H1 w/ball in front court very near division line dribbling t set up last shot. V1 tries for steal and hits ball off leg of H1. Ball rolls into backcourt where H1 regains control. T official calls O/B. Ball to V. A little more info. H1 & V1 had their backs to Trail. Everyone in the building thought because ball was tipped it should have been a no call. Trail after game said because H1 was last to touch ball he could not be first to touch in B/C. I agreed with the crowd. Once the ball was tipped by the defender ball control was lost. I would have indicated a "tip" and let play continue. Or am I missing something?

2nd sitch...Home team down by 1 still. 2.1 secs on clock. Home shooting front end on 1&1. Shot missed. Home rebounds and goes up. Foul on V. Shooting foul. Look at the clock. It reads 0.00 but no horn. Officials confer and award two shots and clear lane spaces. Home team big center steps up and drains both shots. Home team goes to 13-0 and the officials head for the dressing room. My only question with this is: Was this ending handled correctly?

1st Situation: How many over and back threads have there been just in the last month? The specific rules have been stated over and over, very clearly. Ref got it right, you and the crowd got it wrong.

2nd Situation - Did the clock show tenths of seconds or just full seconds? If the clock doesn't show tenths, that last second sometimes ticks off after the clock shows 0:00. There's a delay between the clock running down and the horn.

#1: If H1 was the last to touch it in the frontcourt, they can't be the first to touch it in the backcourt. Correct call.

#2: If there was no horn ,which means there are nano-seconds on the clock, then it was handled correctly. However, the lane should not of been cleared.

I think in Sit.1 that it was a back court V. Home had cntrol in F/C and last to touch ball on way to B/C.

In sit2 the clock showed no tome but there may have being time remaing that did not show.

Got to agree with Smitty. The officials were 100% correct in the first situation (of course I have no idea what a 90% call would look like). In the second situation, as long as the try was off by the end of the game, the fould would count and the 2 free throw would be awarded with no time on the clock and the lane cleared. Sounds like the officials had 2 tough ones at the end of the game and got them both right.

why do you clear the lane?

If there is less that .3 seconds on the clock for the free throws, why have players in? There can be no try. The situation sounds as if the player was taking the shot right at the horn and the try ended as time ran out. Just my opinion of course.

If I am reading this correctly, the official made the right call. The ball last touched the team in control which was the Home team. Then a player from the home team was the first to touch the ball in the back court. That was the right call. It is usually misunderstood, but it is the right call.

The game does not end until the horn. Having said that, I would need more information. Was the foul considered before the game ended? Was the clock horn not working properly? You are not giving us any information that gives the reasons why the official made the decision. You just stated there was a foul called and there was no time on the clock. It sounds like they have a foul and the clock did not sound off properly. There could be more to the story, but I will wait for your response to know for sure.

Peace

why can't there be a tip on a free throw?? and with the home team down by 1 it may very well come into play.

First of all, I am assuming by "O/B" you mean "over and back" or more commonly backcourt violation. If so then the right call was made. Home never lost team control and was the last to touch it before it went into the backcourt. Not only could H1 not retrieve the ball, but no player on the home team could do so without a violation.

On the second situation, you are correct the free throws should have been shot with players on the line and the ball should have given to V with 0:00.00 showing on the clock to inbound following the second made FT. The horn signals the expiration of time, not 0:00.00. It is possible that there was still a tenth of a second on the clock or in your situation since it appears by your post that the clock in question reads tenth and even hundredths, there might have been 0:00.001 left in the game. Maybe not enough time for a basket, but plenty of tiem for some other things (i.e. a foul).

What is "ball control"? In basketball, there is team control and player control, but no such thing as "ball control".

You are right about the tip. I have a touch of the flu and haven't been able to eat well lately (how's that for an excuse). The original post said nothing of the officials having any time on the clock. If there is no time up, the rebounders should not be there.

Nope, time on the clock doesn't mean anything if the horn hasn't sounded. The horn ends the period- not the clock (rule 5-6). You don't line 'em up only when the ball becomes dead if the last FT isn't successful(R8-1-3). In this case, you need one more live ball, i.e. legally touched on a missed FT or on a throw-in, to run the last few l'il mini-ticks off of the clock to get the horn.

OK 1st sitch. I guess I was thinking that team control was lost when the ball was tipped away by the defender towards the back court. When the defender tipped the ball the ball glanced off the offensive player into the backcourt. You are all saying after the ball was tipped away the offense still had ball control??? So that would be a backcourt violation?? If so I stand corrected. That was a tough call in a real tight situation....

2nd sitch. Clock reads seconds & tenths. This clock, when shut off read 00 secs & 0 tenths. 00.0. No horn however. A foul was commited prior to horn & clock operator reacted to whistle. I agree with officials that shot attempt was before end of game as we did not have a horn. So there was some time left. Somewhere between .01 & .09 hundreths(sp) of a sec.

You mean like "offensive foul"?

..just askin'....bye...

That is what we are saying. It is a commonly misunderstood rule. But team control does not end just because the ball is tipped away. So if the team in control touches the ball before it goes over to the BC, and is then the first to touch the ball, BC violation is the result.

Peace

What are bugs found on Chuck's leg the day before the first frost of fall?

I'll take "Small Change" for 200 Alex...

It's not a tough call at all. It's the right call. There's no controversy.

You mean like "offensive foul"?

[/B][/QUOTE]LOL

They're all offensive- even the ones committed inside the "cylinder of verticality".

Yep, not tough at all. Team control remains with the team that last had player control until the ball either becomes dead or control is gained by the opposing team (OK, it also ends on a try, but that's not relevant in this situation). Simply batting or tipping the ball does not constitute gaining control.

Yep, not tough at all. Team control remains with the team that last had player control until the ball either becomes dead or control is gained by the opposing team (OK, it also ends on a try, but that's not relevant in this situation). Simply batting or tipping the ball does not constitute gaining control. [/QUOTE]

Yep, except that in this situation had B1 tapped it into the backcourt without A1 touching it. A1 could have gone back and retrieved the ball without have a violation called. B1 did not have to have gained control first.

What makes this backcourt is A1 was the last to touch it.

Yep, except that in this situation had B1 tapped it into the backcourt without A1 touching it. A1 could have gone back and retrieved the ball without have a violation called. B1 did not have to have gained control first.

What makes this backcourt is A1 was the last to touch it. [/QUOTE]

I don't get your point...it was clearly established in the original & subsequent post that the ball was tapped by B1, touched A1, then went into backcourt where it was first touched again by A. All 3 elements of backcourt violation are present...team control, last touched, first touched. My post was in response to that's a walk's misunderstanding of when team control ends - had nothing to do with who touched it where.....that was already a given.

Only a tough call if you don't know the rules, which is true for a great many of fans.

I don't get your point...it was clearly established in the original & subsequent post that the ball was tapped by B1, touched A1, then went into backcourt where it was first touched again by A. All 3 elements of backcourt violation are present...team control, last touched, first touched. My post was in response to that's a walk's misunderstanding of when team control ends - had nothing to do with who touched it where.....that was already a given. [/QUOTE]

My point was to make sure no one got confused about what you were saying. What you were saying is exactly true that team control was not lost when B touched it, but I wanted to make sure they understood that you were not saying that if B touched it last than A could not go get it.

In short just adding onto your statement as you were to Smitty. Sorry for the confussion.

I think joseph's comments help to clarify the situation for those people who don't necessarily know the rule (some of whom read these discussion threads...).

He just didn't want someone to walk away from this discussion, see a scenario under which B1 tips the ball away from A1 and into A1's backcourt (w/out touching any player on A), and think that a violation had occurred because there was still "team control."

Good job by the original officials (in situation 1), by this forum (in explaining why they were right), and again by this forum (in explaining why the original officials made an error in clearing the lanes when the period had not yet ended).

Thank you

The last to touch first to touch is something that I run through my head in these situations. I repeat in my head the colour that touched last (ie. white, white, white). And then if white is the team on offensive and they are the first to touch then it is a backcourt violation. If the defensive team (ie-Blue) touches first then I repeat no backcourt no backcourt in my head.

I find it really helps and allows for a quick decisive whistle without any delay time re-running the play in my head.

Huh? :confused: Line up the players for a free-throw and then give the ball to the other team oob?

Boomah said "second <b>made</b> free throw". That's absolutely correct. If the FT is made, the clock doesn't start. Ergo, you need the throw-in to get the last mini-tick off of the clock to get the horn. If the second FT is missed, the clock will start on a player touching the ball, and that also takes care of the last mini-tick to get the horn.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2005 at 07:39 PM]

OK people. I stand corrected on my verbage. I apologize for the "ball control comment". I see after I see after I corrected myself the first time I repeated "ball control" again. Sorry. As far as the "tough call". I meant that just seeing the ball glance off the offensive player was tough. I understand, now, how the trail made the call he did. Thank you all for your insight. Player control..Team control... I'll get it right!!!!!