BktBallRef posted last night about saying some things to a coach that he wishes he hadn't. So, what did I do today? You guessed it.

I don't regret calling a flagrant T. He said, "There's no such rule in the book. They are just making it up." I don't regret threatening to forfeit the game if he didn't leave the gym.

I do regret getting in his face, and shouting, "Out! You need to get out, NOW!!" Wasn't even clever or interesting. Sheez...

Uhm. More?

More what? details?

What call did you make that is "not" in the book?

Was that all that was said to earn the flagrant, or was that AFTER you tossed the coach?

White was clearly the better team, but Black wasn't getting run over, either. White wanted to get lots of steals, and they ended up fouling a lot. 18 in the first half, and we were pretty lenient. They led by 10 at the half. Third quarter was rough, because black was fighting back. We called several on both teams and were in the bonus at the end of the quarter. White still led by 8 or 9.

The white fans were very unhappy with the reffing. They were getting pretty noisy. The coach was loud, and tip-toed up to the line, so to speak, but hadn't really stepped over. He'd complain about a call, but then not carry it forward. Once I heard someone say,...

A minute or two into the fourth quarter, Black has the ball for a throw-in. White defender is flailing around in front of him. Suddenly reaches across and whacks the ball. In spite of Camron's insistence that I could warn in this sitch, I assessed a T. Coach asks why they don't get a warning first. My partner explained that the book requires the T without warning when the defender hits the ball. Coach and all the fans groan. Fans yell and object. I came part way across to report the foul, partner heads for the baseline to administer. The table guy asked if a technical is also a personal. I said it was, and started to walk away. The coach then said -- just loud enough for me and the fans to hear -- "There's no such rule in the book. They're just making it up."

I whistled the T very calmly. Then, as I turned to report to the table, and make sure my partner knew what was going on, it occured to me that this coach had directly called me a cheater, and had done it in a way that would incite the fans to mayhem. I decided to call the T a flagrant. After all that, then I got angry. I reported the T as flagrant, walked over to the coach, and said, "Out! You need to get out! NOW!!" He was sitting down by then, and I was sort of leaning over him, right in his face. The crowd got very quiet.

There was a pause, and then he says, "Who are you talking to?" I was about 2 feet away from him, and I felt a little too big, so I took one step back, breathed deeply and said, "You, head coach. I called this technical foul flagrant and your are ejected." He says, "I'm not going nowhere" and I said, "Then you will forfeit your game." He finally got up and left.

I'm not sorry I tossed him, but I wish I hadn't yelled up his nose!

Funny thing is, his kids played much, much better after he left. I wonder if any parents noticed.

A few years ago I did a boys JV game, during our pregame my partner said that he'd had this team a couple of weeks ago and they ran the coach, so expect to deal with it.

Game starts, the problem coach is yapping from the start, and so are his kids. They fall behind early and mid 1st my partner whacks the coach. I go to give him the seatbelt, and he starts to move the first chair into the coach's box. I told him to move it back with the rest of them.

They are down 15 at the half and early 3rd I whack and toss him. Varsity coach sits on the bench and takes over. A couple of minutes later I'm about to administer a throw in and I see the ejected coach peeking out from behind the bleachers.

I go toward the table, tell the AD who was at the table to get him out of here, they have a minute or game over.

With the varsity coach they come from 15 down and win by 10, and we don't hear a word from any of the players.

After the game the AD comes into the dressing room to apologize and to tell us that he had just fired the JV coach.

What level was it, Juulie? Was this at the Canby tourney?

Because this is a double negative, it means he is going somewhere. So I guess he was OK with being kicked out.

BTW - why didn't you bet him on the rule first? ;)

And why didn't you PUKE on his shoes? Did I get it right? Did I? Did I?

While I may have said you <em>could</em> call a violation/warning, I also said that in this type of situation ("whacks the ball"), I would go and have gone straight to the T.

Thanks, Camron, I feel better now!

Yup, Canby. 5th grade boys, OC Pioneers. You have them today or tomorrow?

I have them tomorrow - don't know which teams, it's always a surprise. I'm at Ackerman, though, so I'll probably have some consolation games. 5th grade...oh boy.

No problem with the T, no problem at all. However, tossing him for that (flagrant)... boy, that seems awful harsh. I wasn't there so I don't know the whole story, but those words aren't a flagrant T in my game.

Z

I debated briefly. If he'd have just said that to the asst, and I'd overheard it, it would have been a simple T. But he carefully planned it to be loud enough to get the fans going even more than they already were, and by the time I was in his face, the fans were, in fact, screaming and being pretty ugly. The flagrant quieted the crowd, and because the coach was gone, the boys played much better. I think it was the right call.

Sounds like it was more than just what he said, but also a game management, game control issue. Good call rainmaker.

Z

Why, thank you!

No argument from me either. The initial T was right on - in those circumstances I also would have called it. As for the flagrant T on the coach, only you were there and it is your judgement that matters. I agree with Z that there sounds like a more involved dymanic was at play than just the one comment. Sometimes you need to go with your gut instinct - most of the time you'll find you were right. Earlier in the season I went against that & didn't hit a Hill-Hi kid with a flagrant - still wish I had that one back to do over.......

I don't know what the Canby tourney rules are, but often in tournaments an ejection is treated as valid for the whole tournament. Look on the bright side, you may have done your fellow officials a favor & kept them from having to deal with a jerk coach tomorrow.

I see we've both got 7pm games at the Sunset tourney tomorrow - albeit on different floors....see you there. Try not to piss off too many coached before I get there, OK? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/la...smiley-014.gif

[Edited by TimTaylor on Jan 30th, 2005 at 04:02 AM]

No way I'm gonna let you off easy. You've gotta learn to throw down the flagrants with the best of 'em. I'm definitely gonna give the most toss-able coach I can come up with!

Editted to add:

By the way, how's your daughter? And how are you recovering from your international escapade?

Juulie,

1 attaboy, a pat on the butt and 2 rounds of "For he's a jolly good fellow" for you!!

btw...5th grade boys, unbelievable.

I'll take the attaboy, and the tavern song (with appropriate purchase), and skip the pat on the butt. Thanks anyway, though.

My 2cents and follow up question:

Excellent call. No warning if ball struck on throw in.

How did you administer all this mess?

1) T on throw in
2) reported player for that T
3) Coach gets flagrent - reported that.....

next? How many shots?

Four, after the coach left the gym. Black got ball at division line, sn White went on a tear scored 8 straight points in a row, and drew two ro three fouls. Kids were laughing, passing, breaking, cutting -- tearing the place up. That coach was definitely not healthy for them and when he was gone they were having fun. I really hope for their sakes that the parents noticed.

OK.

Pat on the back then?

Dan, wimmen will never understand the importance of our male rituals. It's not their fault really. They're just missing that x gene that sub-consciously tells us guys how truly important these things are.

If it'll make you feel any better, ol' buddy, you can pat me on the butt. And after that, we can go roll around in deersh*t and chase the mailman.

Juulie, I had both OC 5th grade teams today - they ended up playing each other. I think because of that, the coaches didn't say anything to us the whole game. Hard to be a harda$$ when you're playing kids from your own school. I'm curious which team you had trouble with. I'm guessing OC-Black because the coach of the OC-Red team seemed pretty peaceful. Either way, I was just glad to be done with it. There's something about 5th grade that makes even a close game still not a very good game.

I think the problem isn't missing an "x gene," but that they have two of them!

You tossed a coach for THAT? You're kidding, right?

And that right there tells you it was justified. You know you made the right call when the tone of the game improves because of it.

That's what I was thinking. The gene that supresses male-bonding behavior is on the "missing leg" that they get and we don't. Not sure who got robbed on that one. I'll have to think about it some more while I'm rolling in deersh*t and chasing the mailman.

[/B][/QUOTE]The gene that supresses male-bonding behavior is on the "missing leg" that they get and we don't. Not sure who got robbed on that one. [/B][/QUOTE]Dan got robbed. Big time.

kudos
 

I do appreciate it when other officials take a stand and make a tuff call like that. You do make it easier for those that come behind you.

Maybe this coach will realize now that he cannot say anything that he wants and get away with it.

BTW, I am just trying to imagine you yelling at this guy. I know nothing about you except that you are a female and I think that this coach was a male until you got ahold of him.

I am trying to think of the appropriate way to ask this question. Oh well here goes, Was this coach a lot bigger than you. If so what was the expression like on his face when you were hollering at him. I am not sure if you are a small petite person or not. If you are that would be awesome if you were hollering at a big man and he went running away with his tail between his legs.

Well, it's 5th grade boys, so the tolerance level with idiot coaches would be a lot lower, but I guess I would be in the minority of this group with the flagrant technical on the coach. I certainly agree with the technical, but I'm also of the opinion to give the guy enough rope to hang himself. He either sits down and shuts up (unlikely) or does something stupid and gets the second technical foul, presenting the perception that the coach earned the ejection more than he did by having the one techincal adjudged to be flagrant. I know your heart and mind are in the right place rainmaker, but that just how I would have handled it because I'm sure there's a greater than 50% chance I would've chased him minutes later.

Juulie,
Good job. His comments were inflammatory and inciteful. If you felt (and you did) that they were too far over the top, "Bye bye."
You realize you jinxed me, now, though?
Yesterday in a 7th grade girls tourney, I had a howler monkey for white. I can't even remember who was ahead, but he'd complained about a no call earlier. White 34 is guarding the inbounds after a basket, and they get the ball into red. White 34 gets over to her, balls up her fist, and swipes at the ball. She missed and popped her in the chest instead. I call a simple common foul, but take a second to warn her that she was pushing a technical by using her fist.
Coach chirps, 'That was a no call down there and you call this touch foul?"
I bark back, "Coach, she punched her in the chest with her fist. If I hear one more word." I stopped myself there. I don't like the way I did it, for a couple of reasons. But it worked. I didn't hear a peep from him the rest of the game.

Re: kudos
 

I'm not petite. Never have been. I was conceived large. Also, the coach was sitting down. And I was loud. I can BOOM when necessary. He wasn't as big as me anyway, so I expect I did sort of intimidate him. i caught myself as I was leaning over, noses about 18 inches or less apart. I backed off when I realized the sitch, and then turned my back "to find the site administrator". When I finally turned around, he was gone.

I just wish the parents had seen the whole play for what it was. Can't imagine wanting to put a kid on his team.

Juulie,

I had to go back to the your initial question/comment to remind myself what kind of feedback you might have been looking for.

Understanding it is a lowel level game and the leash is shorter etc., I was still surprised to hear you got in his face and raised your voice. We are all aware of the Caveat: "I wasn't there, you were". Still its seems like that would have been a great opportunity to practice holding the temper and not sinking to the perpetrator's level.

I do agree with the assesment of the T as flagrant--I'm with you on that one. Was it possible to asses it while maintaining decorum and still achieve the same results?

Did you get any feedback from your partner, or any other official who might have been on site? Or any other knowledgeable person?

Partner didnt' say a word. But he was pretty busy the whole game making eyes at his girlfriend who was watching. I mean, he did a decent job, but his first attention wasn't in the game.

David, you're right about a chance to practice. I was ashamed as soon as I saw myself nose to nose with this jerk. And it didn't last long. I extricated myself pretty quickly.

But the point to the thread was that Tony had said somethings he wished he hadn't, and the very next day, I did the same thing. And from the sounds of the posts today, I also passed the jinx along to Adam!

Live and learn. Next time I'll do better.

Juulie, I gotcha. But, it sounds like you may have said the right things but maybe NOT just the way you might have wished you had.

If we've done enough games, we've all been there (I know I have). The long standing hope is that none of us repeat the same mistakes--right? And best of all, we HOPE we are able to learn from others mistakes--they seem to be less painful.:)