In watching the Duke/MD game it struck me that the second type of held ball was clearly being miscalled.

Section 35. Held Ball
Art. 1. A held ball occurs when an opponent places his or her hand(s):
a. So firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.
b. On the ball to prevent an airborne player from throwing the ball or attempting a try.

A.R. 27. A1 jumps for a try for field goal. B1 jumps to defend against the try and (a) touches the ball before it leaves A1’s hand and A1 returns to the floor with the ball and the ball never loses contact with A1’s hand(s) or (b)the ball loses contact with A1’s hand(s), A1 retrieves the ball while in the air and returns to the floor in possession of the ball and begins to dribble or (c) after the ball touches the floor, A1 recovers the ball and
begins to dribble. RULING: In (a), the official shall call a held ball. In (b) and (c), the play shall be legal. A1 has gained a new possession in both instances.

The two plays that demonstrated my above comment were a block by a Duke player in the first half near the basket, in which the ball was even loose when the Lead official blew the whistle and signalled a held ball, and at the 10:01 mark of the 2nd half when a MD player on the perimeter jumped, but had the ball hit by a defender causing it to come out of his grasp, and fly up in the air. He caught it again before returning to the floor and a held ball was called.

Anyone out there who Tivo'd or recorded this game could affirm this.
It made me wonder what the ACC is instructing their officials to call a held ball.

The ACC is not giving any specific instructions on calling a held ball.

That wasn't the only area they were struggling in.

On the first held ball, the L signaled a foul, then changed it to a jump ball. It was neither. It was a clean block. I think he realized that after he went up with his fist. That's when he changed the call.

I thought the second play was a no call. The ball was clearly slapped out of his hands and he caught it and returned to the floor. Nothing there.

The foul that wasn't called on Sheldon Williams was the biggest miss of the night. MD player goes up to dunk and Williams grabs his forearm, nowhere near the ball. Of course, ESPN showed it over and over. But they were right. That's a foul in any league.

Having said all that, I'd probably make a lot more mistakes than they did if I was to ever work a Duke game in Cameron Indoor. At least the Dookies lost! :D

If the Dookies were playing the Tar Heels at Cameron and you were doing the game, as bad a ref as you are, (we all <b>know</b> that) I still think that <b>you</b> would have gotten the Sheldon Williams foul.

I watched the ad nauseum replay of the missed foul, too. The angles from above definitely showed the foul. But, when they showed the angle from around where I guess the trail would've been, I could see where the official might have thought Williams hit the ball first. Plus, we were seeing the replays in slo-mo replay.

Since I'm an ignorant fan/coach, whose call would that be? In two-man, its the official up top, right (trail?)? Is it the same for three-man?

I gotta tell ya, though, I see post-release contact like this all the time. Sometime its called, sometime its not. I mean, even the block that was called a held ball had contact on the follow-through after the block.

Agree with BBR on the first held ball. Official anticipated the fould blew the whistle and signaled a foul. However quickly replayed the play in his head and realized it was a clean block and went with the held ball, which was his only out and in my opinion the right thing to do.

As for the Sheldon Williams "blocked shot" play in question that ESPN replayed "ad nauseum" the official definitely kicked it (which we do some times). A fould should have definitely been called. However, I think an argument could be made (and one the announcers never considered in their incessant babble over the play) that it was an offensive foul. Remeber Williams took a forearm to the nose. If you watch the play, the Maryland player used his off hand to fend off the defender (this contact happened first) and may have prevented Williams from getting to the top of his jump and subsequently the ball. I just throw this in as a different view point, because I don't think we as officials call this type of play enough, it happens alot and we are quick to hit the defense with a foul. All that being said, a foul one way or the other was appropriate as he did get all wrist.

BTW... isn't the wrist part of the hand, and the hand is part of the ball, so... :D Just kidding!

I believe you have these events in the wrong sequence.

I don't think so. I watched all 1,207 of the replays and that is what I saw and i have it on tivo so i gave myself an extra couple of looks. The contact to the face definitly happened first. Now was it an arm bar and enough to consider an offensive foul, in my opinion yes. However, some may say no and I can respect that as well. My point for bringing it up is that it is a call we don't see often and happens more than we call. I was more or less trying to make a discussion point out of it. Bottom line, a foul happened either by the offensive player or by the defensive. It was not nothing. And I think the crew upon looking at it would say the same. Overall I think they did an excellent job.

There was a worse call missed
 

Well the one that I really questioned was at the end when the guy from Duke clearly rebounded the FT (over the back) and then pushed the Md player off and layed it in for the basket.

Coach Williams almost came on the court after that miss.

And agreed, the contest was very physical and there were a lot of non-calls in my opinion that went to Duke toward the end of the game. Call it the home court advantage.

Thanks
David

Re: There was a worse call missed
 

:rolleyes:
AAAAHHHHH!!!!!

Re: There was a worse call missed
 

Home court advantage??? The officials who work this level don't let home court filter in. Unless someone can prove otherwise these comments are unjustified.

The call you are talking about, in my opinion and view, the duke player outjumped the MD player and beat him to the ball. The fact that the MD player was in front has nothing to do with anything and is not an "over the back" as this is fan speak. He did not PUSH do get the board. Then, he had MD players all over him, and it looked as though he may have pushed them off. But I think the officials passed on the grabs and holds and thus decided it would not be right to call the push on him and ultimately no-called the play. Right or wrong this had nothing to do with home court. :(

Re: There was a worse call missed
 

There may be a lot of reasons the call was missed. But the fact that Duke was playing at home was not one of them.

Re: Re: There was a worse call missed
 

I am going to agree with all of you that I don't think any D1 official that I know of would give any kind of a "home field advantage", and I watch a LOT of basketball.

But Coach K has lots of pull and last night in the last three minutes of the game, I know of three or four calls that all went to Duke that were questionable. If might be just a freak, but it did make me wonder.

Even Dickie V (Mr. Duke himself) questioned a couple of them.

But, as we all know from calling games ourselves, it probably was just a matter of circumstance. I know of games where all of the calls just seem to go towards one team,

But, but with Coach K right in the officials ear and there was a no call, just makes you wonder doesn't it?

Just a thought.

Thanks
David

I don't allow myself to be "worked," so I have to assume D1 officials don't either. So, in other words; no, it doesn't make me wonder.

Re: Re: Re: There was a worse call missed
 

No it doesn't make me wonder, because I saw Coach Williams in the ears of the refs all night too. He is a big time coach as well with a NC under his belt.

That duke kid definately cleared some space by displacing the defender with his forearm to get that layup (just under 4 in the 2nd)

But they passed and have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about reffing....

Memo to Dookie Fan....Make shots down the stretch! Seemed like they went 5 trips in a row either missing a rushed shot or not being able to secure a rebound. It "felt" to me like MD had a lot more composure in the last 10 min of the game...

Larks - I call perfect games everytime......from the couch with my tivo!

LOL. Me too. Haven't missed on yet from the couch with my tivo instant replay button. Can't figure out why I can't getthe Big Time ESPN games with my accuracy and this method though. Welmer, Hightower, et al must have pictures of someone :D

You'd better look at the 1,207 replays again. That was a poorly officiated game.


[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Jan 27th, 2005 at 11:41 AM]

While your example was the most egregious, I think the biggest swallowed whistle was late in the game under 4 minutes when Williams got the ball on the low left block, Shaq-shouldered the MD post defender back a couple of steps, then dunked the ball. MD post had good position, Williams displaced him without doubt and no call. Great no-call in the NBA, but clear foul in this game. Duke lost due to poor shooting/shot selection, but this no-call late in the game could have been pivotal.

and your credentials to evaluate are....???

BTW... I didn't edit your post. I accidentally hit the edit button instead of the quote button.

Re: Re: Re: There was a worse call missed
 

Trust me - "Coach W" does it just as often as Coach K.

I'm just glad UMD won - GW isn't having a great week, but this will help our RPI . . . barely.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBall_Junkie

Quote:

and your credentials to evaluate are....???

having worked national championship games under the watchfull eye of many assessors.... I guarantee you that the crew doing that game took some heat afterwards...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WinterWillie

Quote:

Originally posted by BBall_Junkie Quote: and your credentials to evaluate are....??? having worked national championship games under the watchfull eye of many assessors.... I guarantee you that the crew doing that game took some heat afterwards...

Are you saying you worked NCAA championship games? Also, if you have, I've never heard the term assessor when talking about a basketball evaluator. Since you know it was such a horrible game I will keep my eye out for a video play from this game. The ACC assigner WILL put a play up if the game was that bad.

I have an off-topic question. If you guys had a cable box and the option if getting a cable box with built-in DVR for $10/month or TIVO which one would you get? I'm just wondering how the TIVO will be able to record things without me manually setting the cable box to the correct channel.

Home court advantage??? The officials who work this level don't let home court filter in. Unless someone can prove otherwise these comments are unjustified.

[/B][/QUOTE]Agree. An official in any D1 league wouldn't last long if there was even a hint of a "home court advantage" involved--in any of their games. Coaches really don't want an official that might give them a few breaks at home. They're worried about getting the same guy when they go on the road.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WinterWillie

Quote:

Originally posted by BBall_Junkie Quote: and your credentials to evaluate are....??? having worked national championship games under the watchfull eye of many <i>assessors</I>.... I guarantee you that the crew doing that game took some heat afterwards...

What does the assessed value of your home have to do basketball? And officiating the national championship of tiddlywinks doesn't count. :rolleyes:

Z

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tomegun

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie Quote: Originally posted by BBall_Junkie Quote: and your credentials to evaluate are....??? having worked national championship games under the watchfull eye of many assessors.... I guarantee you that the crew doing that game took some heat afterwards... Are you saying you worked NCAA championship games? Also, if you have, I've never heard the term assessor when talking about a basketball evaluator. Since you know it was such a horrible game I will keep my eye out for a video play from this game. The ACC assigner WILL put a play up if the game was that bad. I have an off-topic question. If you guys had a cable box and the option if getting a cable box with built-in DVR for $10/month or TIVO which one would you get? I'm just wondering how the TIVO will be able to record things without me manually setting the cable box to the correct channel.

They cost about the same. The box rental and programing fee is about the same as the programing fee for TIVO. You will have to buy your own TIVO box and have whatever warranty comes with it. If something happens to your rental you get a new one.

I love it. It automatically records 1 hour of whatever you are watching, so if the phone rings or nature calls, you just rewind it and watch the recording and catch up to "live" during commercials.

It comes in great for looking at plays. You can record two things at the same time, and it has picture-in-picture so you can follow two shows.

I think it's harder to get a good angle on off-ball stuff with this technique. ;)

Blindzebra, my question is more about setting a program to record and how Tivo will interact with my cable box. I have a DVR right now in the bedroom and it is super-simple as far as setting something to record in advance. You can't change the channel while recording. On the TV where I'm putting the next one it has picture-in-picture so there is a splitter with one feed going straight to the TV and the other feed going through the cable box first. The Tivo unit would have to be between the cable box and TV like the VCR is (moving that) so I need to know if I will have to manually set the channel on the cable box to record on the Tivo like I have to do now for the VCR. I don't even use picture-in-picture because the TV is High Definition and the picture is great!

Once again I'm sorry for being off-topic. With the talk about Tivo and the fact that I'm changing some stuff around in my family room I got to thinking about my options.

I'd go with the cable box DVR, same cost no hassles. Some boxes have a VCR link that can control your VCR, I don't know if TIVO has a similar device. Some cable boxes have a guide feature that allows you to set a VCR timer for a show in the future.

That is all I needed to hear. Yes, you can set timers for the future. Like I said, we have one in the bedroom so I will just have to get one that does high-definition and DVR. Thanks.

Say what you will Junkie but it wasn't the best officiated game I've seen this year. When replays show obvious fouls that any rec league official could have called at full speed, it's a pretty good indication it wasn't a very strong crew.

Having said that, I will say that a crew is only as strong as it's weakest link. THe weak link is the one who drug this crew down.

Which one was the weak link? Give us a clue even though I think I know who the weak link was. I didn't see the game though.

Weak link
 

Tivo it, rat-at-tat man. Under two minutes left in game, ball at Duke's end, crunch time, hard foul by Duke at baseline right in front of lead, no whistle, slight delay, C whistles the foul from 35 feet away to save L's butt. No one likes to bash, you make the call!

Don't know his name but he was the one who called the held ball after initially signaling a foul, when in fact it was neither. He had to explain himself a couple of times to Coach Williams.

Not that I give much credence to announcers, especially Billy Packer. But while working the Wake-Ga Tech, he even mentioned ESPN repeatedly running replays of missed calls from the MD-Duke game.

Wake-Ga Tech last night, a much better officiated game.

Also MIch and Mich St
 

Agreed and also watched Mich and Mich St and was a very good crew.

Hightower was Ref, but the other two were very good and smooth. They started calling it one way and it stayed that way the whole night.

Thanks
David

That was Mike Kitts

OK so which one was the weak link? Like I said, I think I know but I'm just wondering. I didn't see any of the game so I don't know about any particular plays. Even though one name has been mentioned you don't really have to call any names. Who was the official that missed the call and who was the official that made the call. The crew is basically (please don't read anything into this, it is for description purposes only):

U2 - One black guy that is solid/thick/stocky
U1 - One white guy
R - One black guy

*Interesting note - during conference play the ACC has very few Rs. There were around 4 new guys given the designation this season but before that there were only around 6 making the grand total someplace in the neighborhood of 10! There are some heavy hitters that do ACC games that are not Rs even though you would think so. Something I learned at a meeting that I previously did not know. Two of the guys on the crew for this game are Rs, one being one previously and one being a new R. I'm not sure about the other official.

The MD/Duke guys were:

Officials: Leslie Jones, Michael Kitts, Reggie Cofer

Kitts is the white guy. Reggie has put on some weight. I had never seen Leslie before.

Nevada, I know who they are. I was just wondering which one of them supposedly messed up without calling out their names. BTW, Les Jones is good and you will see more of him.

U2