Is it just me, or does there seem to be more coaches and players crying for an "automatic" Player Control Foul because the defender "lowered his/her shoulder"????

It just seems like I have been hearing this a lot more in the past couple of years than in the previous many years.
It seems as though these players/coaches feel that Legal Guarding Position does not matter in this case.

Just curious......

Ball handler or dribbler?
 

Do you mean the ball handler? If you are talking about the ball handler, then I agree that the burden is on the dribbler/ball handler in those cases. Not sure I am hearing anything out of the ordinary, but if the dribbler lowers their head, I really do not care what the defender did as a rule of thumb.

Peace

OK..Clarification....Dribbler driving towards the basket...

I agree with Rut. If the dribbler drops the shoulder, the defender is going to have to be wildly out of position to get hit with a block.

I am going PC. When I see a player lower the shoulder, it is saying that he is going to initiate contact. Yes, I want to watch the defense but the lowering of the should usually distracts me from doing this and I want to call PC.

[Edited by Tim Roden on Jan 25th, 2005 at 01:17 PM]

For most of the people I know and work with lowering the shoulder is about as close to an automatic PC foul as you can get.

Not sure I agree in all cases, but I had an old (retired) official tell me sometimes you just need to make the call everyone expects for your own sanity...this might be an example.

I have made a few calls based on this. They were so popular, the coaches for the team I called the foul on stood up and cheered for me!

Most people think if the defenders feet are moving, then it's a block. Legal guarding position does not mean you must "be set". That's what I hear as much as "he lowered his shoulder". The opposite side says "he wasn't set!"

I could use help the other way...If the dribbler, in the post, keeps backing in, shouldn't that be called a PC foul? The player playing defense has legal guarding position: both feet on floor, facing the player, but, it seems, we generally give a lot of leeway to the dribbler in this situation, maybe because the defender seldom falls down. Or we call the defender for "bodying up" on the dribbler. What guidelines do others use for this type of play?.

If the defender doesn't fall...I got no call.

If the defender hits the ground I got a PC, as long as the defender is not moving forward.

I wouldn't wait for the defender to fall, but you have to determine whether he's being pushed or is giving up ground. If I think he's being pushed under the hoop, PC.

There is a big difference between lowering a shoulder and CONTACTING the defender. Most of the times I hear coaches or players saying this, there is no contact.

This is coachspeak much like "moving screen" is, we hear them asking for something that is not a foul without contact.

It is a normal position for a dribbler going to the basket to have their head and shoulder leading the rest of their body.

We are still looking for LGP and contact that displaces the defender.

Bingo!

Look for displacement....not the defender falling to the floor. Does the offensive post player move the defender? Get an advantage? TWEET! Player control!

Yes the dribbler can lower his shoulder to get around a defender... if he gets that head and shoulders past the defender... then I've either got a no call or a blocking foul if the defender continues to move into the dribbler - because that is not legal guarding position.

The dribber can move any direction he wants and in any orientation unless the defender gets to the spot first and/or has LGP.

The shoulder being lowered is only a clue. If the defender is moving towards the dribbler at the time of contact, I'm still calling a block.

If the defender has LGP, PC.

What if the defender has a toe on an OOB line when the contact occurs?

Ignore that, Camron. Just funnin'. I know that you hate that rule. :D

I'll abbrevieate my discussion on that point....

.

Done. That's about as brief as I can be on that point. ;)

Seriously, I don't mind the rule so much. It's just that the written rule and the interpretation and the clarification are not consistent with each other. The rule talks only about the status of LGP with regards to being OOB while the interpretation/clarification talks about the definition of a block with regards to being OOB while nothing in the rule support this across the board.

I agree with you Tony. Specifically, if he gets head and shoulders past the TORSO of the defender. And I know this is stated in the rules somewhere, but I don't have my books with me right now.

I had this happen in a men's industrial league with a player complaining about my not calling PC when other team's player put their shoulders down and drove on them. I had to remind him of our pregame where I said let us do the officiating. Didn't happen in any of the varsity games I did (complaining, that is).

[quote]The dribber can move any direction he wants and in any orientation unless the defender gets to the spot first and/or has LGP.

The shoulder being lowered is only a clue. If the defender is moving towards the dribbler at the time of contact, I'm still calling a block. [quote]

That is my point....even though the shoulder is lowered, without LGP, you usually will have a block.

.