I have officiated volleyball and softball for about 15 years. This year my daughter is playing middle school basketball. I have seen numerous times when during the game and between periods, the refs are talking with fans regarding calls made, not made, complaints, etc... I don't believe this is a positive thing to do during a game. I have spoken with fans/spectators after the game but not during. Is this a common practice in basketball? You may or may not be aware that here in Pittsburgh, PA, there is a parent currently being charge with attacking a basketball official. Numerous people have been on the witness stand stating this official did not touch this parent but, I wonder if maybe there was a conversation as I have outlined that may have added to this parents displeasure and ultimately the attack. Please do no misunderstand, there is never a need for violence.

I admit I've chatted it up with fans during games. Always in a joking kind of way when I know it will be taken lightly, and only for a quick second. I don't find that harmful in any way. OK there was that one time I told a coach who was sitting in the stands to shut up, but that doesn't count ;). What does bug me is one particular official I've worked with a few times likes to chat it up with everyone before the game. He'll go into the stands during the 15 minute warm-up and before that (in his uniform no less). He chats it up with coaches, some more than others (in his uniform). He chats it up with everyone and anyone, for an uncomfortably long time. I figure he just wants everyone to like him a lot. It bugs the crap out of me. It's wrong in so many ways.

I bet Juulie will know who I'm talking about...

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 12th, 2005 at 05:32 PM]

As a general rule I would not talk to fans, but that is not always the case. Sometimes the talk you have with fans is small talk or about them getting in the way or them giving you the ball back. I guess it would depend on what was being said. We are after all human beings. We are not robots out there. I guess I would have to hear more about what was said and how much was said. It is a lower level game and it is very possible that he might know someone in the stands and that was the nature of the conversation. Who knows until you clarify?

Peace

Which one?!

It's not a great idea, but I'd bet we have all done it at one time or another.

I have done it in youth games several times. Letting them know you are a person and not just a striped shirt can be a good thing.

I once had a high school game back in Kansas. This small town would all turn out for the game, and these older men were notorious for getting on the officials. They would sit in the front row, mid-court.

On the ride there we talked about the issue and we figured we'd let them no they'd have no impact on our game. We went to them during warm ups and said,"So you are the guys we will have to hear all game, right?" They laughed and said,"That depends on how bad you guys are."

The first call of the game was a block/charge right in front of them, that went against them, I just shot them a glance and winked.

Start of the 2nd quarter and I'm about to administer the throw in, and I'm sweating pretty good. They said,"You must be drinking too much beer." I wiped my hand across my face and said,"Why you need some?"

We did not hear anything from them the rest of the game, and they actually invited us for beers after the game.

You have email...

Is that why I'm sweating so much? I thought I was just old and fat. ;)

Feelin a lil' left out Smitty?

Not the crowd favorite?

When is it ok to talk to fans?

Maybe to defuse situations before they occur?

Maybe to let them know you are the referee?

Maybe to let them know you are there and are human?

I'm not sure what you're implying. I think it's unprofessional to talk to fans during the 15 minute warm-ups before the game. I think it's unprofessional to talk to and joke with one coach for a sustained amount of time and not talk to the other coach during that 15 minute period of time. I think we should never display any sort of behavior that might be construed as favoritism toward one team. I also think there are times we can talk to the fams during the game that can be done under the radar and may or may not be appropriate. What's your specific problem with what I said before?

Where in Pittsburgh paparada? Washington County here. Also, since you are from this area, if you have a chance please read my post on Ronny Bell's Trial (Official Attacked Trial thread) and let me know what you think about my sitch since you're familiar with the PA law.

Double standard.

Where in your original post does it say 15 minutes prior to gametime?

You even said you do it yourself!

Quoting: I admit I've chatted it up with fans during games" Always in a joking kind of way when I know it will be taken lightly, and only for a quick second. I don't find that harmful in any way. OK there was that one time I told a coach who was sitting in the stands to shut up, but that doesn't count

When do you draw the line?

I am not trying to be argumentative here, just wondering where you are coming from.

You're right, I did admit I do it myself. I do it when I'm waiting to inbound the ball and I'm near a fan who I have heard say something and will say something back in a joking manner. That's about it. I think that's ok.

What I have a problem with is when an official chats for a long period of time with the home fans (or the visiting fans) once we have officially entered the game (that's the 15 minute mark of warm-ups). I think it's wrong to do it before that time as well if you are in uniform. I'm talking about long conversations, so it's clear you are friends with these people. Or the coaching staff of one team. I just think it's inappropriate. That's where I draw the line. Is that a double standard? I really don't think so. If I could be convinced it was, I would change the way I do things. I don't want to be perceived that way.

I think it's unprofessional to talk to fans during the 15 minute warm-ups before the game. I think it's unprofessional to talk to and joke with one coach for a sustained amount of time and not talk to the other coach during that 15 minute period of time. I think we should never display any sort of behavior that might be construed as favoritism toward one team. I also think there are times we can talk to the fams during the game that can be done under the radar and may or may not be appropriate.
[/B][/QUOTE]I think that I agree with you completely, Smitty. I also think that's pretty much the same as the instructions that we hand out to our officials, as to how our association expects them to act at a game.

Well I am not sure anyone said there was a conversation that was for a long period of time. That is different than making a comment or two when you are standing right in front of a fan. But I disagree with you about having a conversation with someone during warm-ups. I go places where people know me very well. I will have people approach me and start a conversation with me or greet me. I am not going to just ignore them. Now that does not mean I will go on and on with them, but it might be a couple of minutes depending on who the person is or what they say to me. I will not go into the stands shaking hands and kissing babies. To me this is a case by case basis. I know if I step on the foot of a fan near the end line, I will apologize to them. That is speaking to the fans is it not?

Peace

I have to say I don't get it. You seem to think that changing at the gym is a very important part of being professional. But you'll talk for a couple minutes with fans during pre-game warm-ups when we're supposed to be watching the players. I think we can talk to friends before or after the game, out of uniform. Once we walk on the court, it's all business. I'm just tring to understand your idea of professionalism.

Smitty,

Please do not try to make this into a larger issue. I said that I would talk to someone if they approached me. I am not going to tell them in a rude way to "get away." I have approached officials during the warm-up myself to say hi or to let them know I will talk to them later. There is nothing wrong with that. Especially when you are working games with a large amount of people. Many times there are people walking right behind you or right in front of you. Fans say things at that time. So you are going to act like the Buckingham Palace Guards if someone acknowledges your existence? To me that is going to give off the wrong message if you ask me. We are human beings, we are not robots. Speaking to a fan and having a long conversation is quite a different thing if you ask me. If a step on a fans foot in a small gym, I am not going to act like a jerk and not apologize for doing that. I am a human being first, an official second. Lighten up dude.

Peace

Let's not forget that some/most people see us as individuals!

We are not scum of the earth that the minority say we are!

Once we start treating every fan/parent/coach that way, we are no better than them.

The way things are going in the world of sports, I would be inclined NOT to talk to anyone!

But I like to take the humane approach and deal with it as it is dealt.

JMO of course.

I sometimes talk to fans...dead ball, waiting for players to get in position for the throwin or coming out of a timeout and heading to my spot. Depending on your personality and confidence, the circumstances, and who you're talking to, this can be fine or it can get it in deep trouble. There are plenty of times that the right few words can buy you some slack and/or get a good laugh. <EM>Sometimes</EM> they actually have a decent question and listen to the answer as if they want to understand the call rather than just gripe.

The difference that Smitty is trying to get across, as I read it, is that the official he mentioned seems to have seeked the conversations and spent the better part of warmup in/near the stands in conversation or spends all the time talking to one coach and doesn't say boo to the other one. This is not acceptable in my book.

When I have people I know approach me, I'll speak for 30 second or minute but ususally steer the conversation to a close: "BLah, blah, blah, blah.. That's good news. I'd love to chat with you but... Catch me afterwards/See you at work tomorrow." They always understand.

Seeking a conversation and finding yourself in a conversation are two different things if you ask me. Coaches will at times want to ask a question. I have had them go all the way across the court to get a basic question answered. I am not going to be rude and tell him to go away because he asks a question. I understand it might not look the best, in that situation I would not have been seeking out the coach. I would try to keep it short and end the conversation, but I would not be rude to end the conversation.

Peace

In answer to your question papa:

From my experience, the vast majority of the officials (myself included)DO NOT get into a discussion with fans regarding calls, plays etc. during the game. And the reason is it would be fruitless because (1) fans are NOT objective and (2) fans do not know the complexities of the rules - they know the basics and that is it.

Evidently when someone questions your opinion, they need to lighten up. That's real fair of you. I am referring to the specific comment you made that you might talk to someone for a couple minutes during the 15 minute warm-up period. I find this to be quite unprofessional. That's my opinion. Just like your opinion was that it's unprofessional to come to the gym in uniform. Talking to someone briefly or acknowledging a friend for a few seconds is different than engaging in a 2 minute conversation. We're all entitled to our opinions, aren't we?

That's exactly what I was saying. I never said that people shouldn't answer a coach's question. I never said you shouldn't acknowledge someone you know. I was talking about behavior that would imply you might favor one team. I happen to also think you shouldn't talk to a friend for more than a few seconds once you are on the court doing your job as an official. If JR chooses to do otherwise, that's his thing. I simply find it unprofessional. That's just me.

If you want to debate the "how you come dressed to the game issue" you are more than welcome to in the other post. It is still open and you can voice your opinion there.

I think talking to fans, coaches and players all have a time and a place. During most warm-ups, where we stand is usually a direct line of fan traffic (at least in games I have worked). I do not have to move and fans are walking all around me and my partners. It is not unusual that someone will say something during that time or say hi. It is not unusual that fellow officials will say hi or greet you at that time. Even when I go to the table to check the book, it is not totally out of the question that some fan will say something as I am at the table. Of course you are entitled to your opinion about what is professional and what is not, but I do not see an outcry for not speaking to fans across the board as they do about how you come to a basketball game. Most officials that have any sense realize that talking to someone that approaches you is very different than going out of your way to have a conversation. As a matter of fact many times an AD or coach will come and talk to the officials during the warm-up period. What should we do, run away from them? If you want to compare apples and oranges be my guest. Professionalism has many layers and is based a lot one where you live and what is acceptable in that area. It is not considered unprofessional to talk to fans in specific situations. Now if I go into the stands and sit by a fan and carry on a conversation, that is very different than them asking me a question about a call and I was just standing there. I like to be personable and being professional is also showing that you are open to people you come in contact with. It is not being a professional treating people as if they are in the way when they come and say something to you.

Peace

I watched the R in a D1 mens game tonight talk to two elderly people in the front row at the division line before the tip-off, once during regulation, and before the OT.

Right after this game we'll go to dinner, ok Mom and Dad?

Good Game, huh?

Damn it, OT, we're gonna lose our reservations!

Wow I didn't mean to start a fight. Cool off guys. You sound like fans now. Just kidding.

Let me give you some of the situations I have seen. I didn't do this before because I felt my original post was long enough.

Ref calls a line violation on a player during her free throw. Some people around are asking what was called, I reply with the call and the rule to back the call. As the ref is running up court, He is replying to the fans at the same time I am informing them. I don't understand this.

Another time, I am in the stands sitting by a man that is lightly (and I mean lightly) complaining about calls. Nothing big, not being annoying. His daughter played for the visiting team and we were laughing and joking with one another the whole time. The ref walks over between periods and begins to discuss his complaints. It made no sense to me as an official for many years to do this. There was no reason for this and it certainly didn't stop him, as a matter of fact, this made him complain even more. Luckily for the official I was there and able to contain this fan with humor. The ref's comments were things like, I have officiated for 25 years, (we all know time doesn't make a good official) she wanted to know what calls he didn't like, and assured him she would watch that closely.

These are two blatant examples that I would never do and would not encourage anyone to attempt. I believe this (for lack of a better word) closeness allows fans/spectators to feel as if they are part of the game other than what they are, FANS.

Wow!! An Aristotle fan!! Awesome!

"To be is to do" -- Plato
"To do is to be" -- Aristotle
"Do be do be do" -- Sinatra

For my part, I will briefly greet a fan before a game or at halftime. I will not speak to a fan at all during the game.

Could always wear your headphones out there so you have an excuse for ignoring fans that greet you.LOL
I agree with JR, don't go looking for conversation but a Hey, have fun. Or something is fine. Just don't ask an open ended question that opens the door to conversation. I tend to smile and "head shake". Ignoring people will make you seem more like the jackarse that some already think we are.

Just to be clear, I never said we should ignore people who greet us. I don't advocate being a jacka$$ out there. I didn't intend to make such a big deal out of this.

I do talk to fans on occasion, especially in weekend tournaments and such. It helps pass the time and often you'll see the same people all day long. As far as discussing rules or calls, if a fan asks in a polite manner, I'll give them a quick explaination (where else are they supposed to learn the rules correctly? Broadcasters?). Other than that, it's usually asking about a college game that got over after I was at my game, how their season has been going, or something of that sort. I think you can have short conversations in a professional manner. If your conversations are getting in the way of the game, you need to tone it down.

Properly thanking a fan
 

I learned this a ways back when I was sitting courtside and the ball came to me. I tossed to the official, who said "First assist you ever got." Everyone liked it then, and everyone has liked it for me ever since.

Re: Properly thanking a fan
 

Had a situation similar to this Tuesday. Ball put in play at mid-court table side coming my way (I'm lead across court). A-1 threw the ball all the way across court and toward me (sort of catty-corner). The ball went completly across court without being touched and a lady in the 2nd row caught the ball. As I ran up to retrieve the ball I told her "good hands" and she laughed about it. Everyone around her thought it was funny.

If someone comes up to me pregame, I'll be cordial and respond, but I'll make it clear I'm a little busy right now (unless it's someone in game administration or a coach, in which case they have my undivided attention). But the only person I'll initiate a conversation with (other than the traditional pregame meeting with a coach) is my partner. Usually we'll chat about things like a player's elbow brace or the clock having or not having tenths of a second on it or whatever we need to make sure we're clear on that we may not have covered before we came out on the floor.

If someone makes a quip or retrieves a ball or something I'll always be cordial and at least smile or say "thanks" or share a laugh. Like JRut says, we're not robots. We're authority figures (ostensibly) but I think people cut you more slack if they feel like you work hard and have fun at it.

But hey, I'm new and I don't mind having fun out there as long as I do my job. What do I know?