I had a rec league game the other night.

Mid way through the fourth quarter I called a shooting foul on B1.

As I approached the table the coach, who was in his box and had not said a word to me or my partner all night, got up and (what I considered politely) asked why it was not a travel instead of a foul.

I quickly explained that the foul caused the travel.

He politely said "O.K."

In the meantime my partner was lining the players up to shoot.

As I approached the free-throw line to administer the first shot, I looked down and my partner was not there, he was the bench "preaching to the coach"

He spent a good 5 minutes, with ball in hand, explaining to the coach why coaches were not supposed to talk to referees in the manner he did (which once again I did not find offensive).

I tried to get him away from the bench, he would not.

I tried to get the ball so we could at least shoot the first, he would not give it.

After the game my partner approached me and stated "I'm glad to see that you stand up for yourself with the coaches."

Once again I felt I had done all that I needed to do.

Just thought I would see how you would have handled the situation.

Tell your partner that you don't need his help here, and that he should have let you deal with the coach.

I told him that I handled it the way I needed to handle it and he kinda puffed up and said well it's a good thing that he could fix it for me.

From your account of it, it sounds like you handled it exactly as you should have.

DOn't know what to tell you about your partner except that he has a different idea of acceptable communication between coaches and officials. If his comment was meant sarcastically then he is way off base and I probably would explain to him exactly what took place and ask that he not try to cover for me because I had it handled.

I worked some rec league ball toward the end of summer to keep myself in shape for the season. Working rec ball had the following effects on me:

1) Made my mechanics lazy

2) Made me wonder at least 3 or 4 times per game what my partner just called.

3) Made me call more T's on coaches and players than I probably ever have in 12 years of doing high school ball.

4) Made me wonder at least half a dozen times per game if my partner ever cracked open a rule book in his life.

5) Made me want to stop working rec ball.

With rec ball you get what you pay for. The vast majority of the officials work together all of the time and learn bad habits from one another and don't ever go through any kind of organized training. On the other hand, if you like to crack Dave-isms, it's definitely the place for you. :)

I use rec to fill my schedule between V games.

I enjoy working with the kids (it's the one place the parents and coaches appreciate you talking to their kids)

I does to a whopper on your mechanics if you do a lot between V games though.

Just tell him you had it under control. As far as tolerance level, mines pretty high, however if I'm working with a partner or partners who don't have a high one (although I'd be willing to be they've got a fairly high one, especially at the V level)--then I'm backing them up no matter how little the coach said or whatever that he got a T from my partner.

By the way...I'm getting ready to go do a 5/6th grade game to fill my time on Wednesdays! :) These are always interesting.

Good Luck!

[Edited by joseph2493 on Jan 12th, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

I have a gentlemen that I am sometimes (if assigned I'll work with him if I have a choice I won't) assigned to work with. Away from the court he's a very pleasant person. Sometimes on the court he does goofy things such as going into the stands talking to parents etc. I will do everything that I can to prevent this but if I can't I just stay away and let the chips fall where they may. Any anger or bad feelings are directed at my partner and not to me. I'm sure that you were taken by surprise if this should happen again stay away if possible let your partner take the heat.

joseph2493,
I woulda done what you did, but once my partner started talking to the coach I would have been with the players, ...away.
mick

Never went near the situation once it started.

Tried to signal from ...away

Agree with mick...as to your partner's comment about "fixing it for you", well, all you can do is sigh, shake your head, and walk away...if you work with him again, and he starts to do it again, just hit the whistle and say "Let's go partner, we got free throws to shoot"...

The key to rec ball is getting a decent partner. I work with another younger official, but we both do high school, so good knowledge of the rules and mechanics. We also tend to get on each other if we get start to get lazy/sloppy with the mechanics. For me, that's what makes rec ball a good learning experience and good to fill the schedule between games.

If you can always try and book your rec league games with a partner that you are comfortable with. This may be one guy or a number of guys. I do not know your experience level but working with different experienced partners can help you become a better official. I know last year when I started working rec ball the guy that puts the schedule together for officials seen that I really cared about getting better every time out. So he always seemed to put me with a partner that had alot of experience, and didn't mind answering a thousand questions from me about different situations that came up during our games. I know that this has made me a better official in a shorter amount of time than I would have just working with anyone.

IMHO the benefit of rec ball is it will prepare you for various situations. Things happen in rec ball that will not happen in a HS or college game. I would say use this situation to your advantage. I don't know if you told us the whole story but it seems to me that you might want to speak up a little more for yourself. This is a cut-throat business and your partner took some of your credibility. I would of at least told my partner that I had the situation under control and please don't do that in the future.

IMHO the benefit of rec ball is it will prepare you for various situations. Things happen in rec ball that will not happen in a HS or college game. I would say use this situation to your advantage. I don't know if you told us the whole story but it seems to me that you might want to speak up a little more for yourself. This is a cut-throat business and your partner took some of your credibility. I would of at least told my partner that I had the situation under control and please don't do that in the future.

The funny thing is that I am normally the one answering all the questions for the other guys. Our assignor sends the 1st and 2nd year guys out there to work with the other vets so that they can get experience with experience. My partner that night was only a second year.

I spoke to him about it after all the games were over. As I said previously I was the one out there to work with and answer his questions. I told him that I didn't appreciate him making a fool of us and that in the future he needs to let his partner handle their own "problems."

Rec ball, just like middle school and sub-varsity, is a great learning experience. You can learn from this. Certainly you can learn that your partner is a bit off center and that everybody is a bit different. But did you learn that you needed to do a better pre-game conference and talk about this situation BEFORE it occured? It being Rec league, did you even have a pre-game discussion and if you did, did it last longer than a minute? Were you on the same page as your partner BEFORE the game started or were you just "hoping".

Certainly you did nothing wrong here, but LEARN from the experience and take steps to prevent it from ever happening again. Suggest a pre-game discussion on "when to help and when not to help" may be a solution. Even though it was "only a Rec league" and you weren't getting paid top dollar, situations like this tend to happen when you're unprepared.

Good luck! Unfortunately there are a lot of "those kind of officials" out there. So pre-game the situation BEFOREHAND and not let the hotheads take control.

I'm curious what kinds of situations happen in Rec Ball that you wouldn't see in high school or college games?

This is probably more of what was ment:... I don't think you can say "things happen in rec ball that will not happen in a HS or college games?" I think it's safe to say "it's easier to fix things when they come up in rec ball rather than when they happen in a HS or College game". I also think that because rec ball is not the same quality, you are more apt to have the weird or unusual things come up more often, whereas in a HS game you might not see something but once per year.

EX: coach says to A6, go get A1, so A6 runs from his seat straight to A1 without reporting to the table.

Unsporting actions:
<LI> Technical fouls - cursing, threatening, dead ball contact
<LI> Intentional fouls - shoving, holding, submarining
<LI> Flagrant fouls - any/all of above.

Okay, so if it's in the book, it's prolly there because it happened in a high school or college game. But you can bet you'll run into a "interesting" situations a lotmore frequently in rec ball.

different situations in rec ball
 

There are lots and lots of things that can/do happen
in rec ball that are different & usually tolerated, but in any case, you've got to learn to roll with it.

Such as
using "identifiers" when players don't have numbers.
allowing subs to enter without really being beckoned
due to a running clock.
dealing with scorekeepers who don't pay attention.
keeping track of A/P or team fouls on your own.
dealing with business owners not used to taking orders
dealing with players who's skill level has deteriorated
special rules for foul outs and defenses
players arriving late (not in book)
hanging on rim and slapping the board
slightly moving out of the designated spot
spirited smack talking amongst friendly rivals

Common sense must be used (as opposed to strictly going
by the book) when dealing with rec league players.
They pay to play.

If you're worried about losing your sharpness of signalling,
concentrate and do the same as you would if working "organized" ball.

Re: different situations in rec ball
 

OK I'll give you most of those. I wouldn't allow some of it to go unpunished (hanging on the rim, for example), but you definitely make some good points. I was going to use standard HS mechanics during my sentence of working rec ball, but with a running clock, it looks pretty silly when you chop in the clock and it never stopped running in the first place. And you can't take the time to jog to the correct spot after calling a foul to report it. And you can't switch on every foul.

I hate it when those stinken 5th and 6th graders hang on the rim and then smack talk. I think it's just about unfathomable that those kids can talk that much smack.

I hate it when people get off topic
 

Can't any thread stay on topic without freakin' sarcasm
every time!

We try to preach about running your mouth and say,
"Don't talk unless you can improve the silence".

I hate it when threads get so off topic and full of BS.

Kudos to this site and to most of the posters.
To those who always want to be sarcastic, why not just go
visit a yahoo chat line or go to your local watering hole and tell jokes to the drunk sitting next to you.

I bet this'll open up a can of worms!

I hate it when people get off topic of bass fishin'
 

Barry,
Live bait is good, ...but I prefer soft plastic. ;)
mick

Re: Re: different situations in rec ball
 

Actually, I always STILL use the standard mechanics even with a running clock with the exception of switching on every foul call (if I have mulitple games). I let the teams know at the beginning that we are playing under HS rules (per the league) and that the only difference is the running clock and that FT's will be played on release.

Regardless of a running clock, the game still goes at YOUR pace. If you want to switch on foul calls then do so, it just might tire you out if you have 3-4 games to work. You can still practice your other mechanics like chop clock, inbound spots, partner communication, foul reporting, etc. Who cares if it looks silly, use the time as an opportunity to work on your game.

coupla places we do rec ball at is assigned by one of our HS assignors so most of the refs are patched. this is one of the reasons this league is so popular is because of the officiating. during spring/summer, he really doesn't care much about switching but during the fall he expect everyone to ramp up and "do it right". all year long we are required to use the other proper mechanics. of course during the winter session, most of us are to busy to get very many rec games in. we don't mind working these leagues either because you'll usually have quality partners.

Re: Re: Re: different situations in rec ball
 

That sounds good for your leagues, but unfortunately my rec league assigner, who happens to also be a high school ref, decided that he wants things done differently in rec ball. He owns the business that farms out the officials to the rec leagues, and for him he wants to make the players and coaches happy so they continue to pay him for his services. So he forces us to shortcut our mechanics and even to ignore some of the more obvious calls. We clashed over this a lot, but the bottom line was that if I wanted to work for him, I'd have to do it his way. For example, he didn't want us calling any free throw violations on the shooter, no matter how far they stepped over the line. I could never understand why - I asked him point blank, and he never had a good answer for me. So I don't work with him anymore.

If my partner would ever pull this on me I'd be furious.
Why wasn't he at the endline with the ball ready for the FT? How in the world could he be thinking this was an apropriate thing to do?

I know, as an european, we do things diferently, but I think not undermining your partners authority is a big thing here. My first reaction after the initial post was;
What an a$$#ole.

I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of days but there have been some great replies. In rec games I have had:

A player give me the finger in the middle of the paint....and hold it even after the T
Two players on the same team argue, one knocked the other one cold outside after the game
Called games in gyms that seemed unsafe (they didn't know me at first)

There are more things that I can't even remember right now. My tolerance level is varied due to a lot of these experiences. I have been called a "gunslinger" lately for throwing a coach out of a HS game. Little did the guy know that the assigner got a letter two days earlier about the same coach from another official. I rarely have a higher tolerance than my partner(s) in a high school game because I don't think the HS environment is the place for a lot of the BS that goes on.