Youth game of all things. Players age 10-12.

During the game, a player makes a comment, "these refs don't call anything, they never do." I coulda T'd him up right there but decided to talk with the kid. I told him not to worry about the officials and just play the game. He rolled his eyes and walked away. This kid has a serious attitude for his age and every else knows this, even his mom.

During half-time, I talk to the Sports Coordinator and inform him about this kids attitude, and suggest he talk to the coach to maybe discipline this kid at their discretion. Anyway, midway through the 3rd quarter, this player is on the bench. I am standing on the endline ready to administer a throw-in. This kid walks off the bench, walks along the endline, brushes against me and blatantly kicks his leg and moves his arm as if I was in his way. There is approx 25 feet around the floor of this gym.(I find out later he was going to the boys room)

Bang! I T him up. As I am walking to report, both coaches (HC and AC) are up off the bench hollaring, "What, what did he do? How can you call that,etc...) Bang! T on the AC! After I report I go over to the HC to explain. As I am explaining he waves his hand in my face, as if to say FU, and says "whatever". Bang! T on the HC. As I go report that T, I inform him he has to sit the rest of the game.
I didn't realize he was already gone because of the 2indirects and Direct. He then waves his hand at me again and tells me not to talk to him, and tells me to be quiet. Bang! Yet another T. 4 in 30 seconds.

After looking back and talking with my father who is a 32 yr HS official , he says I shoulda T'd the kid up with his comment earlier.

After the game the AC asks to talk with me. I say, sure coach. This is this kids mother. She was calm and asks me what her son did because other parents told her he didn't do anything wrong, he was just trying to get out of my way. LOL I explain to her what happened. She brings her son over and apologizes for his behavior and she does the same.

My father also told me I should have never talked to her either.

Sorry for the long post, but I actually shortened it a lil.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

good thing your partner got right in there to help out, you coulda sprained a finger dishing out T's like that. Hopefully the league administraitor will help out with additional suspensions. A coach with issues like that needs a week off to get things back in order. Of course, they also may decide you need a week off to cool down.

If the player made contact, any contact, with you deliberately, then it should have been an immediate flagrant "T". You can't allow any participant to get away with acts like that. Fwiw, in our associaton, it's mandatory that all contact situations are reported to the executive immediately, so we can recommend whether charges should be laid also.

Tough situation. Your dad's advice was right on, imo.

Yup. Don't try to reason with 10-12 year olds. Whack and get on with the game.

Sounds good to me. I think players down at the 7/8th grade level are getting worse. Last night I had a player say "Come on ref, he's all over me".. I just said "Ok..." and things went on. But, seems like it's all kids can do these days is cry if they don't get their way.

Having my ample assignments of 7, 8 and 9 graders I too see the increase in "referee baiting".

I suggest you do your research yourself to see how the players respond to their coach's, how they follow their lead.

Ignore the player I say - warn the coach. I got a game to referee, he has players to coach. Makes sense to me we each do our job.

Unfortunately, there's no rules basis that will allow you to do that. You have to penalize the person who actually commits the act, not someone who you may <b>think</b> might be peripherally involved.

How and why could you call a T on a coach who was now ejected for his 2 indirects and one direct?


Once your ejected get them out of the building nothing more.!

As I stated in my original post, I had not realized he was already gone. The T's happened so fast.

But, if a coach was already ejected and being escorted off the court and decided to flip me the bird, I would T'em!

He is still liable for his actions and his team would be penalized.

I looked up the rule and I found nothing that says you cannot T a coach who was already ejected.

Maybe you have a rule reference for this?

I may have just started another thread!

Because it all happened so fast that he hadn't realized the coach was done at that point.
I probably would have given the AC the same explanation you did, if she asked politely. I would have been very cautious, though. If you're giving a T when not everyone knows what it's for, it's generally best to explain it. IMO

High school rules - if a player/coach earns the 3rd T, he/she gets the 3rd T. There's nothing setting a limit on the number of technical fouls a participant can earn. (Although at some point you'd likely have a forfeit.)

NCAA - once you're ejected, no more T's.

totally agree...
 

totally agree. jr high players are getting worse. i have players telling them the above stuff all the time. and i tell them to tell their captain. and have the captain tell me. then i tell them to play on. otherwise as they progress to higher levels, they might think it's ok to express their opinions to officials, when they are not captains. that could get them in more trouble.

Correct, but this is by interp, isn't it? I don't think there's an article in Rule 10 that says "no more Ts", is there? I think I read this in mid-season bulletin.

I cannot provide rule reference nor can I provide casebook play.

Once the coach is ejected (we know there are special exceptions for high school players ) they are no longer a participant in the contest. I would equate this now to a fan who needs to be escorted out. Game management now has responsibility to deal with this unruly non-partcipant. It will be up to the league to issue further penalties or sanctions.

If he does not want to go the game is a forfeit. If he is leaving and flips me off I am not going to ring him up again. I will file the necessary reports etc.

Where do you draw the line 2 directs, 3 directs, 4 directs? You may have a forfeit but where is the line? In this case the coach had two indirects and two directs.
You are right there isn't a reference that prevents the calling 4 t's on a coach nor is there a reference that explicitly permits it either.

The NFHS rules provide no definitive answers, however I would look to both the NBA and NCAA by analogy; they both have interpreted that an ejected person can pick up no more T's.

He needs to be penalized not his team, particularly a bunch 10-12 year olds.

Its my theory that one of the big problems with sportsmanship are these weekend tournaments that kids start playing in upper elementary. Often they do not pay for actual officials and the people they get do not know the rules well enough to enforce them and do not enforce sportsmanship. I try not to do very many games lower than high school, but when I do, I make sure to pregame sportsmanship and I enforce it much more rigidly than I do in upper levels. Teach them early I say. Most will adjust and realize that I'm not going to let them talk to me when their players need to be coached as they don't know how to play the game, but some will think they can complain. They don't stay long. One of my favorites was a 8th grade coach I had at some weekend tournaments last year. I had him 3 times and he got an unsportsmanlike from me in all 3 games. He just didn't understand that he was there to coach his kids not me. I set the tone early. He got his first T from me on the second possession of the first game. One of his kids went uncontrolled down the middle of the lane, making as much contact as he was recieving. After the rebound on our way the other direction, coach was standing, throwing his arms up complaining. He got to sit the rest of the game.

Bobby Knight?
 

I'm only a FED official so I don't know...but the no more T's after ejection, did this come after the Teddy Valenite/Bobby Knight incident where Teddy V gave Knight 3? And what is the reasoning behind this; i.e. if in NCAA you eject a coach and as he is going off the court he says the worse thing you have ever heard as an official, you can't penalize him again?

Re: Bobby Knight?
 

No, because he'll get a nice little fine from the conference, NCAA, or school. I'd say at this point, you've done your part.

Re: Bobby Knight?
 

I believe that's true. The newest change to the BI rule is also a direct result of that conflict. (Teddy called it correctly, BTW.)

I think Kelvin gave an excellent explanation on the first page of the thread.

T record
 

worked a D1 collage game where my R gave 6

Re: T record
 

Not in less than 30 secs though! lol

Or did he?

I think Larry Eustachy got 5 in the NCAA loss to Michigan State in 2000.

Originally, yes - thanks, "Ted V." and "Bob K." :p

The 2004 book, however, states it clear as day - 10-2.2.

Dissenting opinion
 

In the quiet of my office (what work?), I gotta take exception to the direct T on the coach if circumstances were as you wrote it.

I've given out my share of T's, especially in rec ball. But there have been a few instances where I gave multiple T's too quickly.

In this last instance, after having given out two T's in a very short period (both warranted), my fast rec ball T's have taught me that I may be a little too hyper. In my case I have been too quick to issue multiple T's when the only person "offended" was me, and where other officials may have been more rational. My "ears" were up.

If everyone saw a dramatic gesture, and a gym-filling roar of "whatever", then maybe. But if it was a small thing, the game may be better off by letting it go.

Make them earn the last one. Just my humble opinion.

I had a good official suggest to me that after calling a T, stick your fingers in your ears for 30 seconds. Then if the recipient is still going at it, bang him again.

What is the point of the T? I submit that it's really not to punish the offender, so much as it's to remedy the situation. If a coach goes off at me and I T him, and he takes another 10 seconds to vent, even vigorously, and then settles down, haven't I acheived my goal? I wouldn't say never give quick back-to-back Ts, but could the desired end be acheived without it?

And where is your creditability as an official end? If you let the coach you just T'd up continue on his rampage, where do you draw the line with the other coach?

Hmmmm, Coach etc got away with it, let me try saying this...

Coaches coach, players play, officials do the rest.

IMO of course!

Well you've got me beat :D

If an official needs to be such an iron-fisted dictator that he dumps the coach if he doesn't shut up the instant he Ts him the first time, he probably don't have much credibility to lose. IMO of course!

It's always goint to be on a case-by-case basis, but generally you gain credibility by handling people calmly and even-handedly. If you can whack a coach who has crossed the line, let him make his point or get the last word or whatever it is he's trying to accomplish while getting him back to his bench, and then he settles down and goes back to work, you're credibility goes up. You won. He got the penalty he deserved, and you demonstrated that you're in control of the coach, the game and yourself.

What about the other coach? Well, he now knows for certain that you will whack someone who crosses the line. But he's also seen that you're not such a hothead that he has to live in fear of you.

Which is easier to deal with, a coach who will talk to you when he's got an issue, or a coach whose afraid of you and bottles up his issues until they boil over?

Now I haven't said never. If you whack a coach and he goes nuts and throws furniture, yeah he's gone. But even then, it's better for your partner to get him, not you.

Old Time T-Fest
 

Here's my story for most number of T's.

In 1985 or 1986 (I forget the exact year, but it wa sone of those), my grade school would host a year end tournament for other area CYO 5th/6th grade squads.

During one particular game, a coach tellsa player to go in for somebody and the kid runs right onto the court at that moment. T#1. Coach argues witht he officials about the first T and ends up getting 4 more Ts before the officials let him know if he doesn't leave the gym, the game ends. It's the only time in 21 years I've seen a single coach get 5 Ts and I hope it's the last time. :D