I've got a question about interpreting or ruling a charge. I'm primarily approaching this from a high school perspective although I would hope the ruling is consistent at all levels.

I have two primary issues that have bothered me with this call (more specifically "non-call") over the years as a high school player, division 1 college player, coach, and now parent. The first of these is the inconsistency between referees in interpreting and making the call. It seems that depending on the game and who is refereeing, the chances of a charging foul being called significantly varies from one game or night to another. It's almost as if some referees have a different interpretation entirely of what constitutes a charge. I can't tell you how many times I've seen situations where the defensive player has established position, is stationary, not reaching, not leaning, in position before the offense has left his feet, etc. and significant contact is made by the offensive player, and no whistle results or else the whistle is ruled to the offense. The defensive player is often knocked to the floor as a result, and sometimes injury results. Instead of being rewarded for intelligent defense and taking one for the team, the defensive player is either ignored entirely or else charged with commiting a blocking foul.

By all practical reasoning, how can this happen? And I'm not talking about close, judgement call situations. These are or seem to be (from an experienced point of view) clear cut charging situations that are interpreted differently by different people. What standardized training re: these types of calls is given to officials at the high school level? And how is this kind of thing monitored and/or corrected from game to game for individual officials?

Secondly, I also am perplexed by the following call being made time and time again. Here's the situation: Defensive player again is stationary, not leaning, not reaching out to impede offensive movement with the arms, arms extended vertically overhead (in his space), not moving in any way. Offensive player is attempting to drive around the defense and makes contact with either his own inside shoulder or leg with the defensive man's torso or knee. The offense initiated the contact because he chose not to go around the defense. Yet the call is made on the defense as a block.

A similar scenario is when the offensive man goes up for a shot and makes contact with this same defensive man in the same defensive position thru the offensive man's forward motion either directly as he goes up for a shot or thru the follow thru motion on his way down. Again, how can this be a foul on the defense?

I would really appreciate a variety of responses from experienced referees on these scenarios. Thanks.

Starman -- There is absolutely no way we at Officiating.com Discussion Forum can respond to your post. We need to see specific plays, and hear specific refs describe specific calls before we can judge. That just can't happen for you on this board.

If your frustration arises out of a recent situation involving your offspring, I suggest you contact the officials association that assigned the refs to the game under consideration. That is the best person to give you the big picture, and help you understand the overall situation.

There's a very simple answer to your questions:

Officials, like the games they work, are living things with character and faults. Sometimes we just miss them. Sometimes the flow of the game cries out for a no call. Sometimes we just need to even something up so there's a no call. That's what adds to the beauty & drama of sports. I imagine we could replace the officials with unthinking perfect robots.

But wouldn't that make the game much less exciting?

This is not a single game frustration. If you read my message clearly, you'll understand that this is something I've witnessed over many years in many different games at many different levels. Its not necessary to review game film to offer an opinion on how these types of situations should be called. You have all the facts, a detailed description of the scenario. All you need to do is tell me how the situation should be ruled based upon what I have described and/or to provide additional factors that also need to be considered to make a ruling if you so feel that this is necessary.

What are the factors and/or events that would contribute toward ruling these situations a block rather than a charge? There should be an objective rather than subjective way to evaluate these situations.

And I don't really understand how I can practically approach the state officials organization to attempt to get an interpretation of various calls made during a specific game.

Dan, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your honesty. However, I do have a couple of issues with your answers. I don't understand why an official can or should ignore a call or make a different call to "make up for call" previously made. Tell where in the rule book it advocates this type of officating policy. I agree with you that referees are human, and that mistakes result. But that doesn't mean that he/she should even it up by making another bad call.

Also, you mention that the "flow of the game begs for a no-call". Again, this is strange philosophy to me. Since when is it the referee's job to decide when a foul should be called and when not to even though it is the same foul. Or when palming the ball should be called even though the same violation occurs during two different points in a game. This type of "omnipotence" then becomes subjective ruling rather than attempting to stay objective as much as possible.

I realize that subjective judgement is needed to interpret many different calls. However, there should be some common base or standardized training that is provided re: questionable or judgemental situations that will attempt to make everyone evaluate these situations similarly.

Starman311

As others have said, without seeing the play we cannot explain to you why calls are made the way they are. The fact that you felt that the B/C calls were made incorrectly <b>even at the D-1 level </b>makes me think that it is <b>you </b> who is seeing things from a biased view (perfectly normal from players and/or parents to see things through the eyes of the team they are rooting for). D-1 officials are the cream of the crop and they get most of the B/C calls correct. But even they miss some from time to time because they are human.

At lower levels, (subvarsity) you may sometimes be getting very inexperienced officials. It takes a while to learn to "ref the defense" which is required in order to make the proper B/C call.

You should go ref a few games and make a few Block/Charge calls. Then ask the fans in the stands (from both teams) if they think you got them right. I'd bet you a week's pay that there would be fans who would tell you that you missed some and that they were "obvious as heck" and "how could you miss something so cut and dried as that?" Then you can give them your sermon and a B/C being objective and subjective. :D

Z

I've boiled your questions down to this.

Bottom line, it is our job to call the game within the intent of the rules. Many factors to juggle.

Somehow I get the feeling you know this already and you're just trolling on by.

Thanks Z. I appreciate your insight. I understand what you're saying re: interpretation and bias, but I've tried to factor as much of that out as possible. I also have discussed these same situations and calls with others who have similar interpretations. Again, I realize bias may also be involved here.

To further clarify, most of the issues I've seen recently involve high school large school games not division 1 situations.

However, I still would like you and others to address the specific scenarios and questions I've posed. With the information I've described is it possible to rule on the scenario? If not, why not? I know there is judgement involved in every situation, but putting the "judgement" aside does the situation I described determine a charge or a block?

Thanks.

The answer to your question is, "No, we can't." We aren't there, we can't judge. You can't 'put judgment aside' because it's judgment that decides. There is no other final answer.

Fouls or no calls occur in these situations you describe for the following reasons:

Blocks and/or no calls -
-The defender does not establish postion prior to the shooter leaving the floor.
-The defender moves after the shooter leaves the floor.
-The defender flops before contact is made.
-The shooter only grazes the defender's shoulder.

Some teams are vetter coached at taking charges and do a better job of it. Others are always getting to the spot late.

Illegal use of hands -
-The defender raises his hands outside of his vertical plane and makes contact prior to having them straight over his head.
-The defenders hands and arms ar not vertical, even though he extends them vertically after the whistle.
-The defender extends his arms wider than the width of his frame.

From an official's standpoint, I get so tried of players coming down into the shooter's verticality, fouling, and then standing there with their hands over their head like they're signaling TD as I go to report the foul!

Now, none of us get them all right, nor do any of us miss them all. But these are some of the things that we see when the foul is called on the defense that you don't see. Why do we see things differently than you? Because you're watching the player with the ball and we're refereeing the defense.

As for determining what's a foul and what isn't, that's what officials do. We make a determination, draw a line and think, "This is a foul tonight, this isn't." Since officials are human, different crews are going to establish different levels of contact. That's always happenend and always will. Coaches should use the 1st few minutes or quarter of play to recognize how the game is being officiated and adjust accordingly. Example - last week, I had a game where both teams were shooting the 2 shot bonus with 5 minutes to go in the 2nd qtr. With two minutes to go in the 2nd half, one team had 5 fouls, the other had 3. The coaches and players adjusted, even though it tokk them until halftime to do it.

BTW, I don't see the inconsistency with charges and blocks. I see as many charges as blocks called in my area.

There are a couple of reasons.
1. The defense was not in position in time, and the ref had a different angle and opinion on that than you did.
2. The defense slid a knee, hip, elbow, chest, or forearm into the offense, or simply walked into the player. I've called quite a few fouls where the defense had great position, the offense stopped just short of the defender, and then the defender pushed his chest into the shooter.
3. The defense initiated the fall. This is called a flop. I had a play this year where the defender was just about to take a charge and fell to the floor just prior to contact. Result. No contact, no foul, and a defensive player lying on the floor instead of playing defense. I could have T'd him, but instead explained to the perplexed coach why I didn't call a player control foul.

i'm sorry, but playing, coaching, and parenting don't qualify one as experienced when it comes to judging these types of play. I'm guessing your officiating experience is at the AAU, YMCA, or CYO level. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm guessing from your comments that you don't have extensive training or experience as an official, or you'd know the answers to your queries.

9 times out of ten, it's because the defender had his arms at an angle other than 90 degrees when contact was made.

SNAQWELLS

I'd call this 180 degrees, rather than 90.

Nope. 90 degrees from the floor. :) Sorry, I didn't give a base for my angle.

Starman, just because you've played, even at a high level, coached and you're a parent does not necessarily qualify you to accurately evaluate these refs or their judgement. Many of us here have played possibly at the same level as you and some even higher, we referee and we're parents, but that does not qualify us to coach. I know this game and know it well, but when it comes to communicating my knowledge to a kids team, I don't do so well. I can take an individual player and tutor effectively. Do you see where I'm going with this?

One of the standards I go by is if the contact occurs on the O's head or shoulders, the D probably beat him to the spot. If it's on the O's torso, hips or legs then to O probably beat the D to the spot. This is a good place to start.

Since when does the D just stand there and play defense? Every game you see a kid "tent or roof" a shooter and then by the time you call the foul, give preliminary signal and go report, he's standing with arms straight up and a "who me? what did i do?" look.

maybe there is a measure of biased opinion here. some people have a mild case and some cases are severe.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Jan 5th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

Starman, When you're watching a game you're seeing half the court. Where the Official is at he/she only sees a fraction of the court. Kinda like watching a hockey game with your nose pressed up against the glass as opposed to sitting half way up the stands.

Try Reffing some time a you'll be whistling a different tune.

I think everyone is being too hard on Starman, except for nine01C, who I agree with. The situations as described should be called PC fouls. Yes, you must see the play before passing judgement and yes, most fans & coaches are not watching the defense but as described these should be PC fouls. I totally agree with nine01c that more block than PC fouls are called and I think officials are penalizing good defense. Hopefully at higher level games this call is made correctly more often than at lower levels.

For the record, I don't agree with you either.

I think that's correct also
 

I think many many officials routinely miss the Player control foul because they don't officiate the defense.

Once the player has a legal guarding position on defense he can still move in guarding the offensive player and it would still be a PC if the offensive player continues into the body (chest)of the defense. Now if the offensive player hits the defense on the legs or gets head and shoulders past its a foul on the defense for moving into the offensive player.

I think many officials who will see the defense move just a little (maybe a half step) and they call BLOCK! And I know I see more misses on the PC than the block as a HS official.

Thanks
David

I know I call a lot of PC fouls and all it does is brings me more grief from these clowns. The coaches or fans do not know the rules in the first place. They think the defender cannot blink in order to get a PC foul called by the ball handler or shooter. When the call goes against them the officials blew the call. When it is in their favor they say nothing. This individual is no different.

Peace

Ditto.

Z

I don't think that's what Rut was saying and it isn't what I was saying. The point is that fans don't know the rules and they are biased by their team affiliation. They will see the same exact play on each end, but they'll want a block on their end and a P/C foul on the other end. They don't want the correct call made, they want the call made that favors their team.

Z

You really do not know me very well do you? ;) I could give a damn what fans, coaches or players think. But when I call PC fouls (or anyone for that matter), those calls are almost always brought with grief and distain from the coach or fan the call went against. If the call is 50/50, I tend to call the PC foul. But you always hear the "he was moving" line from a coach or fan. You hear the constant complaining about how horrible the call was. Even if the kid is still and slightly leans back, the coach will say "He was leaning back, how could you make that call?" This is all to point out that no matter how much anyone comes here and says something about how the game is called, they are going to swear you as the officials do not know the rule. So who cares what some coach says about how many calls are PC fouls or not? I know I do not.

Peace

It does not take big balls to be that way. All it takes is an understanding of what our job is. It is not to make those people happy for the moment. We are always going to have someone hate our calls. Usually this call brings more venom.

Peace

Hey Starman, I think some of my fellow officials would like to string you up by your ****s and hang you from a tree.

Despite some of the comments directed your way that because you are not an official, you cannot possibly know what you are talking about, I think we are mostly in agreement, that in the the situations you descibe, the defensive player has not fouled, there shoud be a PC foul called, or in the case of the offensive player attempting to go around the LGP defensive player and initiating some minor contact, a no-call, no matter how ugly the shot attempt ends up looking.

I think your bigger concern is consistency among officials in making this call. Consistency among officials will always be an issue. See your other thread on advantage/disadvantage.

What standardized training re: these types of calls is given to officials at the high school level? And how is this kind of thing monitored and/or corrected from game to game for individual officials?

I work in your state, there is little/no standardized training for officials. You pass an open book test, bingo, you are a registered high school official. MN tends to leave training to individual associations or summer camps. It's hard to be an independent, the Minnesota State High School League encourages officials to join an association. Our association has a rookie program for new officials and we are are starting to do some observing within the association. Post game reviews w/your partner(s) help all officials improve. The better officials are going to get more games, the poorer officials will get weeded out. Understand it's not an exact science.

Red_Killian, no one here denies that the plays Star posted are PC fouls. What we disagree with is his assumption that every play of this type that he sees is a PC, when the official rules it a block. Just becauses he describes each one as a PC, it doesn't mean that's what's actually happening on the floor.

I addressed several situations where it's a foul on the defender or a no call. In those situations, he may not be seeing what I'm pointing out.

Yes, the plays he posts are PC fouls, but that does mean that he's right about what's actually happening on the floor.