Can a penalty assessed in one quarter carry over to the next?

walter · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 13, 2001, 01:54pm

Happened to me and my partners last night and I'd like some more opinions regarding how we should have administered the following. A1 fouls B1 just before the horn sounds to end the third quarter. Team B in the bonus. The foul clearly was before the horn so we are going to shoot 1 and 1. A1, however, decides that he didn't like the call and decides to tell my partner about it (no way his comments could be ignored). My partner bangs him. Team A has the arrow. B1 shoots the 1 and 1 with no one on the line and then B5 shoots the free throws for the technical foul. The three of us get together to discuss the throw-in to start the 4th quarter. My two partners state that B should get the ball as a result of the technical foul penalty (2 shots and the ball). I stated that the technical was part of the 3rd quarter, it just happened to take place after the horn but before we had completed all of the action from the 3rd quarter (i.e. the 1 and 1). Therefore, I believe that we should start the 4th quarter with the arrow which would give the ball to A. My rationale is this, the 3rd quarter had ended when we finshed the last of the free throws for the technical. We were not starting the 4th with a technical foul since all activity from the 3rd was over. A's ball because of the AP arrow. We discussed it more after the game and all agreed we weren't entirely sure.

Mark Padgett · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 13, 2001, 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by walter
Happened to me and my partners last night and I'd like some more opinions regarding how we should have administered the following. A1 fouls B1 just before the horn sounds to end the third quarter. Team B in the bonus. The foul clearly was before the horn so we are going to shoot 1 and 1. A1, however, decides that he didn't like the call and decides to tell my partner about it (no way his comments could be ignored). My partner bangs him. Team A has the arrow. B1 shoots the 1 and 1 with no one on the line and then B5 shoots the free throws for the technical foul. The three of us get together to discuss the throw-in to start the 4th quarter. My two partners state that B should get the ball as a result of the technical foul penalty (2 shots and the ball). I stated that the technical was part of the 3rd quarter, it just happened to take place after the horn but before we had completed all of the action from the 3rd quarter (i.e. the 1 and 1). Therefore, I believe that we should start the 4th quarter with the arrow which would give the ball to A. My rationale is this, the 3rd quarter had ended when we finshed the last of the free throws for the technical. We were not starting the 4th with a technical foul since all activity from the 3rd was over. A's ball because of the AP arrow. We discussed it more after the game and all agreed we weren't entirely sure.

First, kudos to recognizing that the technical was still part of the third quarter. Most guys (I think) would not have caught that.

Second, a part of a penalty cannot carry over from one period to the next. Since the horn had sounded to end the third quarter, there can be no throw in after the technical free throws were taken. Use the AP arrow to start the next quarter as usual.

Good job.

sharkref · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 12:00am

Seems like I always get confused on this one so I went to the casebook. Sounds like this covers it.

Page 43 of NFHS casebook states this:

6.3.1B Play: A technical foul by B1 occurs during the dead ball which precedes the second quarter. Ruling:
Start the second quarter by administering the free throws. The last free throw is followed by a throw-in at the division line from the side opposite the table. The possession arrow is not reversed. The opportunity for a throw-in under the alternating-possession procedure is not affected by the foul.

Same as a foul occuring while the inbouder is holding the ball during throw-in under the alternating-possession rule.
Penalize the foul but the arrow does not change because of the foul, only a violation.

Brian Watson · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 08:23am

Shark-

The way I read this the T did not occur in the dead ball time before the quarter. The Quarter had not ended because there were still free throws to shoot.

In this case you go to the arrow to start ther new period.

thomasanderson · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 10:37am

6.76 states the ball becomes dead when the time expires for the quarter,therefore the techinical was assessed when the ball was dead.5.6.4 states that if a techinical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. Then the ball would be given to the offended team for a division line throw in without changing the AP arrow

Brian Watson · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 11:04am

Again, if there were no free throws this would be correct, but there were foul shots yet to be attempted. I don't know whwre it is in the rule book (mine is at home), but free throws extend the quarter until they are complete, even if the horn sounds.

walter · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 11:05am

The ball was not dead to end the third quarter. We still had a 1 and 1 to shoot. The "T" occurred before the 1 and 1 was administered and therefore is still part of the third quarter. 6-1-3b applies not 6-1-4. 6-1-3b states that "each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live. It ends when the signal sounds indicating that time has expired except that if a foul occurs after time expires but while the ball is inflight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when th efree throws and all other related activity has been completed. NO PENALTY OR PART OF A PENALTY CARRIES OVER FROM ONE QUARTER OR EXTRA PERIOD TO THE NEXT." In this situation, the free throws as a result of the foul were not completed. The technical foul happened in that time period and was still part of the third quarter. The fourth quarter should start with whoever has the arrow.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 11:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by thomasanderson
6.76 states the ball becomes dead when the time expires for the quarter,therefore the techinical was assessed when the ball was dead.5.6.4 states that if a techinical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. Then the ball would be given to the offended team for a division line throw in without changing the AP arrow.

You're missing Brian's point. Yes, the ball becomes dead when a quarter ends but, in this case, the quarter has not ended because the FTs from the foul had not been shot. Since the T was called before the FTs were shot, the T is also part of that quarter.

5-6-3
If a foul occurs:
a. So near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires.
b. After time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal.

The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next.

Going to the AP arrow to start the next quarter is the proper call.

sharkref · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 14, 2001, 10:50pm

Thanks for the feedback guys, I see the clear picture now.
Since free throws had not been attempted , still third quarter. Good discussion.

thomasanderson · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 15, 2001, 06:19pm

Thanks for all the info and knowledge which I value and respect. I am still having difficulty dealing with the concept that we are depriving B of part of the penalty for the techinical i.e. possession of the ball due to the time frame in which the techinical was assessed. I am also troulbed by the term RELATED ACTIVITY used in one of the rules pertaining to this situation. I find the term too global and consequently lends itself to various interpretations. I would like to feel more confident if I have to sell this riling.Thanks,in advance, for any feedback Tom

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 15, 2001, 10:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by thomasanderson
Thanks for all the info and knowledge which I value and respect. I am still having difficulty dealing with the concept that we are depriving B of part of the penalty for the techinical i.e. possession of the ball due to the time frame in which the techinical was assessed. I am also troulbed by the term RELATED ACTIVITY used in one of the rules pertaining to this situation. I find the term too global and consequently lends itself to various interpretations. I would like to feel more confident if I have to sell this riling.Thanks,in advance, for any feedback Tom

Sorry Tom, but related activity is directly out of the rulebook. Related activity is exactly what we're talking about here. We're shooting the FTs and then we have a T. The T becomes the related activity, so now the quarter doesn't end until the FTs for the T are shot.