BJV game. Table sounds horn and beckons me to the table. They tell me that 32 for the home team was not in the book. 32 was in the game and had already been replaced when they notified me of this. I told the table that since it was not caught until after he had become a player then he could not be penalized unless he came into the game again and we are notified at the time he enters the game. Correct me if I am wrong on that part.

The next part I drew a blank on the penalty. The home coach choose to go ahead and put him back in the game and get the T out of the way. Is this a team technical? Does it count toward bonus or indirectly to the coach. We did not charge it directly to the player or coach or towards the bonus. We shot 2 FT's and gave the visitors the ball. Was all of that correct. Should we have marked it somewhere in the book? Thanks in advance.

Ok, fist cup of coffee this AM and I am not referring to any book. My initial thought is this. Once the player was allowed to play (became a player) and a penalty was not assesed, you do can not give a "T" for that player re-entering the game because at that point he should be in the book.

If you caught the error at the first point in which he entered the game, then the "T". The "T" is simply a team "T" and is not charged against the coach (retains coaching box) or the player but does count toward team. It also eliminates a second "T" for a "book" technical since only one can be assesed.

This is an administrative tech and is penalized when it occurs. The only thing that I can see that was done wrong was that this is counted towards team-foul count. No direct or indirect to coach and no foul towards player. The table should have caught this the first time they were in the game and even though they didn't it still is punishable when they brought them back in. Any other administrative fouls are not penalized.



[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 12:16 PM]

I have not looked this up but, I believe that once the player has entered the game, in the roster or not, the player becomes a legal player. The book "T" cannot be assesed unless it is caught at that time. If the player enters at a later time, the player would have already have been added to the book so there would be no penalty.

If the "T" was called at the proper time, then the "T" would go against the team only and count toward team fouls accordingly. The coach is not assesed an indirect for an administrative "T" and does not lose the coaching box.

sorry for the double post, my initial response didn't show up when I signed on today.

When it's discovered that the player is not listed, the technical foul is assessed when he is entered into the scorebook. It's makes no difference whether he has entered the game and then left. Many people say that it can't be assessed after he leaves the game but I have never seen any documentation from the NFHS on this. If someone has it, please post it and I'll gladly retract my disagreement.

The only time a T is not assessed is if the scorer makes the change but does not notify the officials until later. In that case, there is no penalty.

It's is a team technical and counts toward the bonus only. If another player is discovered to not be in the book, there is no penalty as only one such T can be called in a game against a team.

I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.

Against the same team or one against each team?

How many technicals did you call?

Ok, consider yourself corrected. 2-11-1 tells us that one of the duties of the scorer is to keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter. Once the team member has participated, the scorebook must reflect this. Even if that means only checking the box for the quarter in which that person played. So if they aren't in the book, they must be added to it. The scorer should have caught this when the kid first subbed into the game. What this tells me is that the scorer is not doing his job properly. As the R you need to put this into your pregame chat with the scorer.

Besides the correct and good advice that Tony (BktBallRef) gave there is also something relevant to this on Page 14 of the Simplified and Illustrated book. It states that if a substitute reports to enter, but is wearing the wrong number, the coach may choose to have the team member not enter, thus avoiding a technical foul since no change is required to the scorebook.



Others have told you the correct penalty, but I'll repeat it and give you the rules references.
Your play is a violation of 3-2-2b. The scorer is required to add a name to the team member list after the 10-minute mark.
You will find the penalty under TEAM TECHNICAL in 10-1-2b. It is stated that this is penalized when it occurs. Meaning at the time the scorer is required to add the name, even if this should have been done earlier, as in your game, but was neglected. I also agree with Tony that if a change is made and the officials aren't told or don't penalize it right then, there can be no penalty assessed later.
Lastly, all technical fouls that have to do with changing the scorebook are known as ADMINISTRATIVE technical fouls. They are listed in the first box on Page 73 of the Rules Book. You will see there that it is charged to the team, counts toward the team-foul count for the bonus, but is NOT assessed indirectly to the HEAD coach.
Hopefully, this situation will serve as a good learning experience for you and the next time that it happens you will know the proper procedure. Best wishes. :)

Same team, two Ts called. We were called over once and the number of a player who checked in was incorrect. 1st T. Called over again (different time) and player who checked in was not in the book. 2nd T.

Here's what Tony is trying to tell you:
10-1-2 Penalty: (Art.2) One foul per team regardless of the number of infractions.

Whoops. :D

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 5th, 2005 at 12:10 AM]

Even if they occur at different times? IE: At the 3:00 mark of the 1st Q, A1 is #44 in the book, however he is wearing 52. At the 6:00 mark of the 2nd Q, A7 reports in and is not in the book.

YES, even if they occur at different times.

Once a technical foul is assessed for...

10-1-2
After the time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

...no more technical fouls can be assessed to that team for the remainder of the game.

PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions.

Ok, got ya! Thanks BktBallRef!! :)

Now, you own it! ;)

For some reason I was under the thought that it only counted as one if you had multiple violations at the same time. Obviously not, and yes I know it! Thanks again.

I respectfully disagree. If it is not discovered when the player is entering the game or is in the game, you can do nothing about it. This infraction can't be pulled out of the hat in the 4th quarter for someone who was not in the book and only played in the 1st quarter. The scorers job is to record who "enters" the game...not who was in the game.

You disagree based on what case play or interpretation?

The same one that you're using! There isn't one. The requirement, in my opinion, is that a name must only be added if that individual is currently a player or the coach wishes that individual to be added to the book.

Does 10.1.2 fit? (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction? RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize (emphasis mine).

Does that cover the situation in question?

I believe that is what some have been trying to say. Once the infraction is not called at the time of the infraction, no penalty can be assessed. Once the player enters the game and the scorer does not inform the refs, it cannot be penalized if the player later returns. When the player later returns, the player would, in theory, be in the book. If the player is not in the book and we have knowledge that the player was previously in the game, the error is on the scorebook keeper for not putting the player in the book previously. No "T". What if the player scored or fouled when previously in the game and it was not noticed then? Do we take the points off or delete the foul? No, because once the player was allowed to play, the player is a legal player. When the player returns, it is a legal player returning. Now, if another player entered the game not in the book or with the wrong number, we still have the administrative "T" we can assess. Whew!

Sorry, but this isn't even close to right. Yes, he is a legal player once the ball becomes live. No, we don't take the points away or delete the fouls. We simply PUT HIM IN THE BOOK. There is no such thing as being in the book in theory. You either are or you aren't.
Every team member who plays must be in the book. That is the official, written record of the game. Initially missing it is no excuse for not getting it right later.

While I understand how a scorer could overlook an entering substitute not being in the book, once that kid scores or fouls I don't see any way that it could be missed.

If the kid plays and then leaves without scoring or fouling, I can understand a scorer totally missing it, but when it is pointed out to the referee, that kid's name MUST be added to the scorebook and that is a technical foul AT THAT POINT in the game.

Camron, I love your respectful disagreement :), but you just can't get around the fact that since this kid played he MUST be added to the scorebook whether the coach wants it or not, and 10-1-2 tells us that this is a team technical foul.
In short, no case book play is needed, I have it covered in the rules book.

Chuck,
Your play simply says what Tony and I have stated. If the scorebook IS changed that is the time the penalty must be assessed. If the T is not called at that time, it cannot be charged for that infraction later. (Another infraction of the same type later could be penalized though.)
10.1.2 does not cover what to do, if the omission is discovered later and no prior change has been made. It is this case that Tony and I are stating necessitates a scorebook change and a T at that time.

Where's Mr. Dexter? He keeps an NCAA scorebook, I'm certain that he can support this.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 6th, 2005 at 04:55 AM]

But if he didn't foul or score and no recorded his entry, how do you know he was in the game? If he's sitting on the bench, he doesn't have to be in the book. If he re-enters, then we put him in the book and assess the T. I don't see how rule compels me otherwise. JMO.

No, I'm afraid that you aren't.

The rule that I'm referencing states that the scorer is required to "Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game." The rule does not include, "If the sub is not in the book, the infraction is ignored if he has left the game before the officials are notified. There's no case play or interpretation that says that.

If a player plays, he MUST be in the book. If he's not in the book, he MUST be added. This philosophy, and that's all that it is, that the T isn't assessed if the player is taken out before the official is notified has no basis whatsoever.

No, it doesn't.

What the case play is saying is that if the scorer enters the player into the book and DOES NOT inform the officials, once the ball is live, it's too late to penalize.

It has nothing to do with not entering the player until after he leaves the game. If he's in the game or BEEN IN the game, he MUST be entered into the book.

The scorer is part of the officiating crew. If the scorer states that the player has been in the game and is not in the book, then a T is assessed and the name is entered. It makes no difference that the scorer didn't advise you while the player was in the game.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 6th, 2005 at 09:51 AM]

Don't look now, but Tony and I are arguing on the same side of an issue! :) Are you scared yet T?

Yeah, I noticed that.

And no, I ain't skeered. We're not always on opposite sides. It just usually happens when you're wrong. :D

So all the coach has to do is change a starter in the book, and then you can't T him up for the rest of the night? Not a bad deal! :p

Mr. Dexter makes sure everyone is in the scorebook. ;) (It's a lot easier at the D-I level where you have an entire athletics communications/sports information department telling you the players on the team.)

I'm agreeing with BktBallRef and Nevada here - take a look at 3.2.2 C:

The technical foul (10-1-2 b and c) is for changing the scorebook, and "penalized when they occur" refers to the occurance of changing the scorebook - it does not refer to when the scorebook should have been changed.

If the scorekeeper changes the book, but doesn't tell you, that's when the time limit comes into effect. If the scorekeeper doesn't change the book, but has to change it later (because of points scored, a foul committed, or finally pulling his head out of his . . .), you still assess the technical foul for changing the book.

Where I do disagree is with giving a T in the fourth quarter for a player who supposedly played in the first quarter, but wasn't added to the book. While the rules certainly support the interpretation of adding the player and assessing a T, I want some evidence that the kid actually played before doing such a thing.