Int. Foul

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Dunno about Fed Rules, but NCAA states:

Rule 4.
Art. 6. Intentional personal foul. An intentional foul shall be a personal foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, is not a legitimate
attempt to directly play the ball or a player.

Determination of whether a personal foul is intentional shall not be based on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

a. Fouling a player who is away from the ball and not directly involved with the play.

b. Contact with a player making a throw-in.

c. Holding or pushing an opponent in order to stop the game clock.

d. Pushing a player from behind to prevent a score.

e. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

Really, when a coach is yelling "foul, foul" he's really saying "stop the clock or get the ball back", so calling based on the coaches words (and not the foul) doesn't seem right.

If there is a legitimate, non-flagrant play on the ball, a common personal foul will do IMO.

Your better Coaches when they want a foul will call a specific play such as "Code Red" Or we're in "black" which means "foul em". When to call an Intentional has no bearing on the score, quarter etc.

[canuckrefguy]

I think you misinterpreted what I said...I was not saying anything about calling/not calling based on the time or score.

What I meant was, a coach yelling "foul" doesn't automatically make the resulting foul intentional. A coach doesn't simply want his team to foul for the sake of fouling. They either want to stop the clock or get the ball back. If there were an opportunity to get the ball back or stop the clock without fouling, they'd be fine with it.

Failing that, what they're frantically calling for is the last hope available to them - a foul. But that in and of itself does not constitute "intentional".

5 secs left, Team B down by 2, B1 two hands A1 or bear-hugs him, with no attempt to steal the ball, you bet I'm calling an intentional foul.

[gordon30307]

Hey Canuck..... I agree with you. If he/she is making a legitimate play I would call a common or personal foul whichever applies. All I'm saying is that the better coaches have a set play that removes all doubt about the foul. Assuming, of course, that it's not intentional.

[Back In The Saddle]

Even if the coach is standing, screaming "foul foul foul," and even if the coach wants his player to bear hug the opponent, his player may just be smart enough to make a legitimate play for the ball. You can't say that a player will always intentionally foul because his coach told him to any more than you can say that a player will never foul when his coach told him not to. Referee the play, don't make it automatic just because of what the coach is saying.

[Robmoz]

The use of a coded reference to alert his team of the need to foul such as "Code Red" is not used as much as it should be. When a coach is screaming Foul, Foul, Foul he runs the risk of getting the X when his players don't play the ball.

The POE should not be ignored, it's there for a purpose. Your judgement on the proverbial "bear-hug" to be a common foul gives an unfair advantage to the defense.

A good coach will teach his players to be ultra-agressive in these situations in attempting to steal the ball. More often than not the steal will be successful or a common foul would be called, either way you get a positive result while minimizing the risk of the intentional.

A good official will recognize the infraction and assess it accordingly based on what he sees as it related to his knowledge of the rules (including the P's OE).

[Tim Roden]

JH game this year, I had this situation and called the intentional. As my partner administered the free throws, I explained to the player the interpretation. I just told him the next time his coach tells him to foul someone make a play on the ball. We'll shoot 1 and 1 then. (8 fouls on the board)

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The FED said in that old POE that it was supposed to be an intentional foul if the coach was hollering sumthin' like "foul them". Common sense (imo) sez that if the defender makes a legitimate attempt to play the ball (in your opinion), then just call it normally- i.e. a regular personal foul. I think that the purpose and intent of the intentional foul rule is to differentiate between normal defensive fouls and fouls that aren't designed to be part of a normal defensive play such as trying to steal the ball or block a shot, etc.

Iow, if you feel that the defender is trying to make a legitimate steal, etc. and fouls while doing so, forget about the intentional foul.

JR,
I remember this, but I don't have my Rules Book from 2000-01. Wish I had kept it. Could you please post exactly what that POE says about the coach yelling to foul the opponents?
Thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

JR,
I remember this, but I don't have my Rules Book from 2000-01. Wish I had kept it. Could you please post exactly what that POE says about the coach yelling to foul the opponents?
Thanks. [/B][/QUOTE]
POE 5 INTENTIONAL FOULS- EXCESSIVE CONTACT
An intentional foul has occurred when a team is obviously committing a foul, late in the game, to stop the clock and force the opponents into a throw-in or free throw situation.
Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing a player away from the ball
- grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be made
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress
- when coach/player says "watch, we're going to foul"
- excessive contact on a player attempting a shot
These examples should be considered intentional any time they occur during a game, not just in the last minutes.

[Nevadaref]

Yeah, I saw that in your first post, and didn't mean to make you repeat it, sorry. But is that really all that it says regarding the coach? I thought that there was something else in paragraph form. Maybe it was a comment or something?
Don't mean to be a bother this morning, but this has been bothering me for a few weeks now, since a colleague asked me about it and I couldn't locate it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Yeah, I saw that in your first post, and didn't mean to make you repeat it, sorry. But is that really all that it says regarding the coach? I thought that there was something else in paragraph form. Maybe it was a comment or something?
Don't mean to be a bother this morning, but this has been bothering me for a few weeks now, since a colleague asked me about it and I couldn't locate it.

There was something issued on the NFHS web site when this POE was put out, if I remember right. I'll look through some old junk- I think that I printed it off at that time to talk about at one of our early meetings that year. Hopefully, I still got it squirreled away someplace. Maybe MTD SR. has got something in the attic and can help out. Mark? Anyway, it said something about telling us that we had to call the intentional foul if the coach was hollering "foul him, foul him", even though the defender might actually foul while making what looked like a legitimate attempt at a steal. The consensus that we came up with, after discussion, was that we were gonna call the play by regular standards--i.e. normal personal foul if the defender played the ball: intentional foul if the defender played the player. Most officiating groups came to the same conclusion, I think, which is why that particular part of the POE was never strictly called as originally written. I think that there was more concern at that time, anyway, by the FED about officials not calling intentional fouls when defenders were wrapping their arms around someone or fouling someone off-ball.

Does that sound just about right for where you were officiating at that time?

[David B]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

There was something issued on the NFHS web site when this POE was put out, if I remember right. I'll look through some old junk- I think that I printed it off at that time to talk about at one of our early meetings that year. Hopefully, I still got it squirreled away someplace. Maybe MTD SR. has got something in the attic and can help out. Mark? Anyway, it said something about telling us that we had to call the intentional foul if the coach was hollering "foul him, foul him", even though the defender might actually foul while making what looked like a legitimate attempt at a steal. The consensus that we came up with, after discussion, was that we were gonna call the play by regular standards--i.e. normal personal foul if the defender played the ball: intentional foul if the defender played the player. Most officiating groups came to the same conclusion, I think, which is why that particular part of the POE was never strictly called as originally written. I think that there was more concern at that time, anyway, by the FED about officials not calling intentional fouls when defenders were wrapping their arms around someone or fouling someone off-ball.

Does that sound just about right for where you were officiating at that time?

I looked for my old notes and can't find them now, but that is how we have interpreted it since that POE was printed.

There is no consideration as to what the coach is saying, we officiate the play and players on the "gotta foul" plays that occur.

Thanks
David

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The NFHS and the NCAA issues POE's yearly. Some items stay a POE for years, some items are there for a year and gone the next. The NFHS 2000-01 POE regarding intentional fouls included a list of actions that are to be considered intentional fouls. The 2004-05 NFHS Rules Book does not list intentional fouls as a POE, but that does not invalidate the list of actions that the NFHS posted in its 2000-01 POE.

I am a firm believer that if Coach B yells for his players to foul and B1 commits, what would normally be a common foul, a foul against A1, that foul is an intentional foul. Have I lived by that rule? Yes. It happened during a boys' H.S. varsity game late in the 2000-01 season. Late in the fourth quarter, Team A has a throw-in in front of Team B's bench after a timeout. A1 inbounds the ball to A2. Coach B tells B2 to foul A2. B2 hacks A2 across the wrist as he attempted to start his dribble. Tweet! Intentional foul on B2. Coach B couldn't believe it and I told him to read this year's POE's. Believe it or not, no technical foul on Coach B.

MTD, Sr.

[Tim Roden]

Even though I haven't met you Mark, I think by looking at your writtings that I have to beleive your story. You would call it and the coach wouldn't get irrate that it happened.:-)

[IREFU2]

I was watching the BV game after my game last night and the same situation came up. Team down by one point and they were fouling. The last foul was a wrap and no intentional was called, just a common foul with put the team on the line. So it seems like this is a call the is very seldom made.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Even though I haven't met you Mark, I think by looking at your writtings that I have to beleive your story. You would call it and the coach wouldn't get irrate that it happened.:-)

I wouldn't say that he wasn't irate, but he was not a very happy camper over the situation. But it is my belief that he didn't press the issue because everybody around us heard him yell at this player to foul the dribbler.

MTD, Sr.