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-   -   To "T" or not to "T"? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/17322-t-not-t.html)

Nu1 Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:27am

I was thinking of this before and a recent thread caused me to think of it some more.

It seems, in many circumstances, calling a technical foul is a judgment call. I know the fights, six players on the floor, etc. are not, but for the others... I'm trying to find my groove as to what should be called and what might be better ignored. In general, I have pretty thick skinned, so I'm trying to guard against letting too much go. A few examples;

Did a Frosh boys game with another new guy. Three or four different times, after a foul call, the offending player did the little "I-didn't-do-anything" dance. (Also done in a variation as the "I-had-all-ball" dance. :) ) I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I'm hoping you can picture it... the arms flapping up and down and the look of disgust on their face. A couple times I stared at the player and his teammates grabbed him. Once, I was administering a throw-in to a previously "offended" player and he started to question the previous play. Prior to handing him the ball I pulled it back to myself and said, "Excuse me?" He said, "Nothing." And we played on. Maybe I should have T'd up someone for this early??? Maybe I should have had a little meeting with the players - The knock it off or else speech...???

A couple coach questions; Same game described above - I call a player control foul on A1 for striking B2 in the shoulder with an elbow after A1 secured a rebound. Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!" No, I didn't whack him. Is this a spot where most would?

Finally, another Frosh boys game working with a veteran partner. After the game, my partner tells me the coach said to him during the game, "You guys trying to get out of here early?" No technical. Now, I'm thinking a technical should have been called here. I don't know if I would have, but I think I should, if I heard this comment.

Any suggestions on where you draw the line?

stripes Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:02am

In a freshman game, I would get the captain and tell him to tell his team that outbursts like that will not be tolerated. The 2nd one will get a T.

In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me. I would probably tell the coach in the third scenario, that he was done talking to us for the rest of the night. Depending on how the game is going, I might just whack him.

BktBallRef Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:33am

Stripes would handle it well.

With kids, unless it's blatant, we give the coach an opportunity to clean it up. If he doesn't, we take care of it the next time.

We usually gives the head coach a warning. I would in both the cases you mention. Next remark would have him sitting.

JugglingReferee Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
Did a Frosh boys game with another new guy. Three or four different times, after a foul call, the offending player did the little "I-didn't-do-anything" dance. (Also done in a variation as the "I-had-all-ball" dance. :) ) I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but I'm hoping you can picture it... the arms flapping up and down and the look of disgust on their face. A couple times I stared at the player and his teammates grabbed him. Once, I was administering a throw-in to a previously "offended" player and he started to question the previous play. Prior to handing him the ball I pulled it back to myself and said, "Excuse me?" He said, "Nothing." And we played on. Maybe I should have T'd up someone for this early??? Maybe I should have had a little meeting with the players - The knock it off or else speech...???
After the first (perhaps 2nd) time of this little dance, I would have done something to stop it. Next time is a T. As for the player commenting prior to the throw-in, if he's a good player you can say something like, "You're a good player on this team. Your team needs you to focus on playing well." It's always worked for me. I only use the "little meeting" in extremely rare cases: twice in 9 years.

In short, first be preventative. If you see something that you don't like, ask yourself how you'd feel if it's 10 minutes later and they're still doing it. If you become uncomfortable, then you definitely need to deal with it before it's 10 minutes later, and preferably now.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
A couple coach questions; Same game described above - I call a player control foul on A1 for striking B2 in the shoulder with an elbow after A1 secured a rebound. Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!" No, I didn't whack him. Is this a spot where most would?
Hmm... I might let this go, if the coach has been good all game. In that case, I would still be inclined to let him know his comments are not welcomed. If the coach has previously been a dummy, then I've more apt to T him, because I'd have already tried to prevent him from being a dummy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
Finally, another Frosh boys game working with a veteran partner. After the game, my partner tells me the coach said to him during the game, "You guys trying to get out of here early?" No technical. Now, I'm thinking a technical should have been called here. I don't know if I would have, but I think I should, if I heard this comment.
I got nutin', except maybe a "No, sir."

gordon30307 Sat Jan 01, 2005 02:47pm

I think all of the instantces that you described could be justfiable called "non sporting" and the appropriate punishment handed out. That being said it's only after doing many games and discussing with your peers how they have handled certain situations and sharing your experience with others that eventually you get a feel for what the appropriate response might be. Experience and lots of it is the best teacher.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Jan 1st, 2005 at 04:29 PM]

Nu1 Sat Jan 01, 2005 05:52pm

Thanks for the input. One thing I'm hearing - from this forum and in-person conversations - is that a warning is a good starting point. I might tend to just shrug things off and two or three incidents might pass that would warrant a warning.

I could at least give the coach, team captains, or individual player a warning as a starting point. Then, I suppose, if something else happens, they're fair game.

As I said, I think I have pretty thick skin. My concern is that I don't want to let players or coaches do or say things that aren't appropriate...or not handle a situation that might lead to my partner having to do something that I should have done.

As stated, I'll keep gathering experience and hopefully become more comfortable with where to draw the line.

PS2Man Sat Jan 01, 2005 06:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
I could at least give the coach, team captains, or individual player a warning as a starting point. Then, I suppose, if something else happens, they're fair game.
You can prevent a lot of stuff by confronting a coach or player. I do not mean threaten them. I mean just having a quite word to make a point. Then it is up to the player or coach to take you seriously or pay the consequences. But they can never say you did not warn them.

Nevadaref Sat Jan 01, 2005 07:22pm

Just to give you an idea of how different officials handle the same situation differently, I'll give my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
In a freshman game, I would get the captain and tell him to tell his team that outbursts like that will not be tolerated. The 2nd one will get a T.
Excellent. Just what I would do. Just a kid that is upset, but isn't way out of line.

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

See above. Why treat varsity players more harshly?

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me.

NO WARNING! Quick, decisive T, without a second thought. That kind of behavior is totally unacceptable for an adult.

So we only agreed on 1 out of 3, but that's people and life.

gordon30307 Sat Jan 01, 2005 07:46pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref
[B]Just to give you an idea of how different officials handle the same situation differently, I'll give my thoughts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
In a V game, I would probably T the "dance".

See above. Why treat varsity players more harshly?

Because Varsity players presumable know better. They should be held to a higher standard.

Quote:

Originally posted by stripes
As for the coach's loud "That's terrible!", I would talk to him first and tell him not to even think about embarrassing us or showing us up. If it happend a 2nd time, I would whack him. He can disagree with me without trying to embarrass me.


NO WARNING! Quick, decisive T, without a second thought. That kind of behavior is totally unacceptable for an adult.

Coach saying "That's Terrible" How do you know he's not referring to what his player did? Would you Tee him if he said "That's a bad call Ref?. Now if the Coach said to me You're Terrible then I'd Tee him.


jdccpa Sat Jan 01, 2005 07:50pm

As to technical fouls other than the automatic Ts by rule and the obvious F bombs, etc. here are my personal guidelines:

Players - zero tolerance for any disrespect.

Coaches - Don't have "rabbit ears"! Try to tune out the fans and coaches comments as much as possible. Try to avoid the clever one liners. If a coach is causing a problem, hold up your palm to the coach for all to see (especially your partner)and tell him/her, "That's enough coach". (It usually happens when you are reporting a foul so everyone is watching you.) If he persists, either you or your partner should call the T.

That being said, you have to be flexible, every situation has its own unique set of circumstances that should be assessed first: i.e age level, surroundings, game situation, tone of voice, etc.....you have to be be in the moment!

Nevadaref Sat Jan 01, 2005 08:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gordon30307
Coach saying "That's Terrible" How do you know he's not referring to what his player did?

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!"

That's how. RTQ.

Quote:

Originally posted by gordon30307
Would you Tee him if he said "That's a bad call Ref?."

Yep. Sure would.

gordon30307 Sat Jan 01, 2005 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Originally posted by gordon30307
Coach saying "That's Terrible" How do you know he's not referring to what his player did?

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
Coach A is ticked about not getting an "over-the-back" call on B2. When I call the foul on A1 he says, loudly, "That's terrible! That's terrible!"

That's how. RTQ.

Quote:

Originally posted by gordon30307
Would you Tee him if he said "That's a bad call Ref?."

Yep. Sure would.

You must give out a lot of Tees.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:03am

When I first came to Nevada I did. But now that the coaches know that I don't tolerate that stuff, and I have convinced a number of my colleagues to be the same way, the behavior has improved so much at most of my games that I rarely have to give Ts now.
I actually have two so far this season. One on a coach from CA and the other on a player from CO.

I am convinced that if officials would stop warning for everything, quit letting stuff slide, and just penalize the poor behavior, it would stop. Well, maybe not stop, but certainly it would be drastically reduced.

They will continue to do what you allow. What kind of environment would you like to officiate in? You do have some control over that.

Forksref Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
When I first came to Nevada I did. But now that the coaches know that I don't tolerate that stuff, and I have convinced a number of my colleagues to be the same way, the behavior has improved so much at most of my games that I rarely have to give Ts now.
I actually have two so far this season. One on a coach from CA and the other on a player from CO.

I am convinced that if officials would stop warning for everything, quit letting stuff slide, and just penalize the poor behavior, it would stop. Well, maybe not stop, but certainly it would be drastically reduced.

They will continue to do what you allow. What kind of environment would you like to officiate in? You do have some control over that.

We whacked a frosh player this year, although it was late in the game. I am amazed at the attitude of frosh, talking back to referees. Makes me rethink whether I should whack the first instance in the next game I do. I know that would stop it. I know that there are differences among things that players do and say. I rarely whack anyone for asking a question such as "What did I do?" But, I may need to rethink this whole thing. I still am amazed at the attitudes of youngsters nowadays.

WinterWillie Sun Jan 02, 2005 01:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1

I'm trying to find my groove as to what should be called and what might be better ignored.

Make sure your calls are <b>real</b> fouls and not of the phantom variety. You will know if you are <b>nailing</b> them if the players hang their heads and look at the floor after your call. Not only will your confidence soar but the players will develop a respect for you and when the time comes to use the 'T', it will be easy.

gordon30307 Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:06am

Automatics Tees to me are:

Any remark that begins with You... The next part of the remark better be the best official I've ever had.

Constant whining or complaining. Once I've given the stop sign now they are fair game.

Swearing so all can hear. If a kid makes a bad play and and says something and I'm 100% sure that it was directed soley at himself and I was not intended to hear it nor did anyone else hear it I'll let it pass. If it's directed at me or my partner he'll get the appropriate punishment.

Showing me or my crew up. Showing my partner up only if my partner is not aware of it.

Borderline depending on circumstances how the coach has treated me how the players are behaving etc. etc. etc. First offenses I'll proably ignore depending upon circumstances. Then again I may not ignore.

That's a bad call, That's terrible stuff like that. Just my opinion I know that 50% of the people agree with the Coach and 50% agree with me. Not a bad approval rating that most Presidents would accept. To me remarks like that are not necessarily showing me up. Then again they may be and if I feel that it's warranted I will use the ultimate weapon. I try to use good judgement which is the key to good officiating.

That being said just because my partner Teed the Coach when he said "That's Terrible" I would of course be 100% in support of my only friend on the court. After the game or half time I may ask what caused him/her to do that with the thought maybe there's something for me to learn. If I agree I file it away if not it goes into the trash bin.

I know of officials that call "a lot of Tees" and I know of officials who hardly ever Tee the coach (claim they are thick skinned) and everything in between. I'm one of those "in between guys".



observer Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:17am

Every official has a different tolerance level
and that may change from game to game.
I personally do not like to see an official give
a coach or player a "second chance". It's going
to happen, so why wait.. everyone knows the rules
including the players and coaches.

refnrev Sun Jan 02, 2005 03:20pm

I think we need to make a distinction between warning and threatening. If I see something that's close I tell a player to "knock it off." I tell a coach "that's enough" "I've had enough." I don't however threaten the T. If I see it again. Bingo!

tomegun Sun Jan 02, 2005 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
When I first came to Nevada I did. But now that the coaches know that I don't tolerate that stuff, and I have convinced a number of my colleagues to be the same way, the behavior has improved so much at most of my games that I rarely have to give Ts now.
I actually have two so far this season. One on a coach from CA and the other on a player from CO.

I am convinced that if officials would stop warning for everything, quit letting stuff slide, and just penalize the poor behavior, it would stop. Well, maybe not stop, but certainly it would be drastically reduced.

They will continue to do what you allow. What kind of environment would you like to officiate in? You do have some control over that.

I agree with this 100% but, IMO, not doing this is the current way of society. If we all followed something like this it would eventually be better for the game. This is even more difficult when some states allow the coaches to dictate, to some extent, how far officials go into the postseason or how many games they get in years to come. If sportsmanship is going to be a POE we need to take it seriously.

Winterwillie, sometimes I dream about reffing someplace like you do. Then I wake up. Getting validation from players is a nice thought but they will lie to the bitter end. A lot, not all, players never think they do anything wrong.

WinterWillie Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:29pm

Quote:

Tomegun
A lot, not all, players never think they do anything wrong.
And <b>you</b> as an official <b>never</b> make a mistake out there.

Mark Padgett Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Tomegun
A lot, not all, players never think they do anything wrong.
And <b>you</b> as an official <b>never</b> make a mistake out there.

I can't speak for Tomegun, but I never have. Just ask Juulie.

Adam Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Tomegun
A lot, not all, players never think they do anything wrong.
And <b>you</b> as an official <b>never</b> make a mistake out there.

I'm not tomegun, but I've seen them on TV. :)
Seriously, I was thinking the same thing. I've seen the "I had all ball" look when I knew for a fact there was contact. Have there been times when I've called a foul and the players reaction made me rethink it (although I never changed the call)? Absolutely. And I've used those incidents to make myself a better ref; just as the times when I can see there was contact but I didn't have the angle to call it. However, I'd be very leary about telling a new ref to use the players' reactions as a barometer for the accuracy of his calls.

WinterWillie Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
However, I'd be very leary about telling a new ref to use the players' reactions as a barometer for the accuracy of his calls.
Maybe it will help if you look at it from the player's perspective. <b>You</b> are the only thing standing between him/her and a full scholarship to a D1 college.

williebfree Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:17pm

Additional food for thought
 
As mentioned earlier, we all have our own personal thresholds and the many factors evolving around the game influence the officials' method of game management.

Use of a "T" (in "judgement cases") should be done to improve the game. The wisdom to judiciously use the "T" will be gained during your time spent on the court and understanding the flow of the game.

My personal style in game managemnt means that I have progressed through the "universal stop sign" before I assess a "T"; unless the behavior warrants an immediate intervention. "You...." statements are of that nature.

tomegun Mon Jan 03, 2005 07:04am

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie
Make sure your calls are <b>real</b> fouls and not of the phantom variety. You will know if you are <b>nailing</b> them if the players hang their heads and look at the floor after your call. Not only will your confidence soar but the players will develop a respect for you and when the time comes to use the 'T', it will be easy.
[/B]
Winterwillie, this is the post I was referring to. Yes, I make mistakes and yes I've made some phantom calls. BUT, if I used the reaction of players for validation of a good call or bad call I would be very confused. Haven't most of us played some sort of sport or game and tried to get away with something only to get caught? My reaction isn't to hang my head admitting guilt on a close call. Sorry. As a matter of fact on my over 30 team my teammates know for a fact I get uh some "ref" calls that send me to the line. What am I supposed to do, say "no they didn't foul me?" I shoot the free throws and try to get a win for my team. It is sort of funny but that is another subject.

I just don't think it is a good idea to tell someone new to use the players reaction to tell if they "nail" a call. Plus, I will NOT think about whether I'm preventing a player from getting a scholarship when I blow my whistle. I hope I'm misunderstanding your post but if I'm not that is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard this season. I don't mean to offend you but come on! Anyone who knows about the DC Catholic league or the DC area in general will tell you that there are plenty of D1 players here. I cannot hamper one of those players ability to show their skills unless I do something so twisted that I will lose my games. Maybe I don't understand what you mean but I have nothing to do with a D1 kid shooting the ball or showing their skills. I don't get it. I'm so confused that this post might not make as much sense as I originally intended.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 03, 2005 08:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie


Maybe it will help if you look at it from the player's perspective. <b>You</b> are the only thing standing between him/her and a full scholarship to a D1 college.

I thought this was a joke. Really, I did.

Jurassic Referee Mon Jan 03, 2005 08:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie


Maybe it will help if you look at it from the player's perspective. <b>You</b> are the only thing standing between him/her and a full scholarship to a D1 college.

I thought this was a joke. Really, I did.

Well......

I hope it is! :D

WinterWillie Mon Jan 03, 2005 09:57am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Originally posted by Tomegun
I'm so confused that this post might not make as much sense as I originally intended.
You are absolutely right.

tomegun Mon Jan 03, 2005 03:15pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Originally posted by Tomegun
I'm so confused that this post might not make as much sense as I originally intended.
You are absolutely right.
OK, let me summarize for anyone that might be a new official.

Do NOT worry about a players reaction when you blow your whistle. They want to win the game. Do NOT worry about whether or not your calls will prevent a kid from going D1, THEY WON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally for new officials; make a mental note of any official that will tell you to do the above!

observer Mon Jan 03, 2005 05:28pm

excellent point.
Listen to vetran officials, extract what
you feel is positive.
I officiate myself and observe at the
D1 level.

SMEngmann Tue Jan 04, 2005 01:05am

One way to deal with the "I never touched him" dance that I saw a former D1 official do in a HS game which I have also used in the right situation was to make a blunt comment about the dance, such as "Give me a break 21, you got him right on the elbow, don't give me that crap." Direct and to the point and it addresses the situation firmly without a penalty.

One thing that I've also noticed is that the players doing these dances often play for coaches who constantly whine about calls. More often than not IMO, these reactions are for their coach's benefit, not yours, and can be seen as an out for them from getting benched or punished for a dumb foul. Lots of times, I've seen these coaches back their player. A coach's attitude is reflected in his players and a howler coach breeds whining players, and leads to these types of unsporting reactions by players and other stuff, like shooters intentionally trying to initiate contact so that if they miss, the ref gets blamed instead of them. All the more reason for properly dealing with the coach, particularly in lower level games. Warnings are weak and too many of them cost you your credibility.

Finally in regards to "looking at it from a player's perspective" and "the ref standing between a player and a D1 scholarship, the points made are ridiculous. Getting called for a "phantom" foul or maybe losing 1 HS game won't make any difference to college coaches, but how a player reacts to a referee in that situation is what's noticed. Coaches teach players to focus on what they can control, and an official's calls cannot be controlled. A player that makes a spectacle of himself after a bad foul call will be looked down upon by college coaches, who would take, all other things equal, a grounded kid over a tempremental hothead. Further, by allowing the kid to get away with it in frosh ball where there are no college scouts, you are <b>hurting</b> his chances of making a good impression on the scouts when he shows his bad attitude in a varsity game.

Smitty Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by WinterWillie
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
However, I'd be very leary about telling a new ref to use the players' reactions as a barometer for the accuracy of his calls.
Maybe it will help if you look at it from the player's perspective. <b>You</b> are the only thing standing between him/her and a full scholarship to a D1 college.

I've seen some whacky comments in this forum, but this has to be the whackiest. I just can't believe an official would say something like this.

Robmoz Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:28pm

Congratulations Willie!

You have won the award for the most outrageous comment made here on the Forum boards for 2004!

Tell us, how does it feel to win and what are your goals for 2005?

Adam Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Robmoz
Congratulations Willie!

You have won the award for the most outrageous comment made here on the Forum boards for 2004!

Tell us, how does it feel to win and what are your goals for 2005?

I just can't believe so many people took his obviously comic statement to be serious?

ChuckElias Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
I just can't believe so many people took his obviously comic statement to be serious
Ditto. Where's that humor plug-in?

Smitty Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:51pm

Ugh
 
OK now I feel like a moron. I thought he was serious.

tomegun Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:54pm

Hold on, are we sure he was playing?

thumpferee Tue Jan 04, 2005 02:56pm

Personally, it doesn't matter what others think on the T situation. If I feel offended or threatened as an official or feel a player or coach is trying to show me up, there is no thinking involved. My alter-ego takes over, and bang.

I don't try and tell the coaches how to coach, I don't tell the players how to play, why should they be able to tell me how to officiate.

I spend hours upon hours studying rules, situations, on this board, trying to become not only a better official, but a better person.

Sometimes the only action to get things on an even playing ground is the T. They will learn quickly!

I may be getting the JRut syndrome! Fookem!


Nevadaref Wed Jan 05, 2005 02:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by Robmoz
Congratulations Willie!

You have won the award for the most outrageous comment made here on the Forum boards for 2004!

Tell us, how does it feel to win and what are your goals for 2005?

Hmmmmmmmmm..... Upon further review, Willie's comment was made Jan 2nd, 2005 08:17 PM so that disqualifies him from the 2004 competition and puts you back on the winner's platform!

:D

tomegun Wed Jan 05, 2005 06:27am

Nevada, what did Robmoz say to win the award?

Robmoz Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Originally posted by Robmoz
Congratulations Willie!

You have won the award for the most outrageous comment made here on the Forum boards for 2004!

Tell us, how does it feel to win and what are your goals for 2005?

Hmmmmmmmmm..... Upon further review, Willie's comment was made Jan 2nd, 2005 08:17 PM so that disqualifies him from the 2004 competition and puts you back on the winner's platform!

:D

Opps, you caught it....geez, I thought I was being so witty too. I hope you weren't betting that I would come in 2nd place.


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