Question we had last night in a discussion. I'll admit I didn't get it at first, but the play was sort of boggled up. Either way, it's my first mistake of the year :D so no big deal. LOL.

Play: Team A is in the Bonus. A1 is in his frontcourt and it guarded by B1. A foul is called on B1. A1 doesn't like the way B1 foul him so he throws an elbow. Boom, T on A1. After you report the foul and T the table says it is A1's 5th foul.

Question: Who shoots what?

I'm sure all you will get this!! But I'll post the answer in an hour or two or three.

Sub for A1 shoots the bonus with the lane cleared. Team B shoots the T. Team B gets the ball division line opposite the table.

I'll assume NFHS:

Disqualify A1. Tell the coach that the sub for A1 will be shooting the bonus free throw(s). Administer the 1-and-1 for Team A first with the lane cleared. Then have team B shoot the technical foul shots and give Team B the ball at the division line opposite the table.

Team A coach can substitute another player for the free throw shooter prior to the throw-in if desired.

Z

A6 shoots the 1 and 1, and then any player for B will shoot the T.

I'd also say A1 should be out of the game even if it was not his 5th foul, because that was a flagrant act.

Let's see....

False doubled foul:
1.A1's replacement shoots the shot(s) for B1's foul with the lane cleared.
2.Any B player designated by coach shoots the shots for A1's T.
3. Team B gets ball at division line for throw-in.

NFHS: A1 is disqualified with five fouls. A1's replacement will shoot his 1+1 with no players on the free throw lane. Then Team B will shoot two free throws because of A1's technical foul. (It should be noted that it is possible for A1's technical foul to be intentional at the least and could even be considered flagrant, which in the case of it being flagrant, A1 having five fouls is not an issue.) Anybody, including incoming substitutes from Team B can shoot the free throws. Team B will then receive the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's Table.

NCAA Men's/Women's: A1 is disqualified with five fouls. A1's technical foul is a direct techncial foul and could be treated in the same manner as I discussed in the previous paragraph. But this is a Point of Interuption situation. First,Team B shoots its free throws for A1's technical foul. The same player must shoot both free throws, even if the shooter is an incoming substitute. Then, A1's replacement will shoot his 1+1 with this foul being treated as the only foul occuring.

It should be noted that under both NFHS and NCAA rules, this situation is considered a false double foul.

MTD, Sr.

Yes it was NFHS. Sorry I forgot that! :) Very nice, no need to post the answer. You all got it!!

[Edited by tjones1 on Dec 17th, 2004 at 03:29 PM]

Mark, the way I read it this is a dead ball contact foul making it an intentional T. Offended team gets 2 shots & the ball at midcourt, ie no POI in this case.

A6 shoots 1&1 or whatever then B shoots 2 for the T and takes the ball at midcourt. NCAA men.

Dan:

You may be correct. I checked the NCAA Rules Book before I made my post and it didn't seem very clear to me. I can tell that I have had only one false double foul of this nature, common foul followed by an unsportsmanlike technical foul by a player and we used the POI and nobody complained about the order of free throws. But I think that this situation just highlights the silliness of trying to adopt NBA/WNBA rules to the NCAA. The POI just makes application of penalties more complex and complicated.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,
Dan is right on about the dead ball intentional also giving possession.

tjones,
You have to love that gordon gave you the correct answer in just NINE minutes!

Yes yes, :cool: very cool gordonn, nice work. I knew it wouldn't be a problem for all you, just another question! :)

Foul and T
 

maybe I am reading this wrong, but it would not be a false double foul, because it is already a dead ball call, intentional at least, if not flagrant, (my opinion, 5th foul or not, he's gone). B1 was the one who was fouled by the intentional foul, he would be the one going to the line for two shots, after the one-one on the other end was complete. right???

Re: Foul and T
 

It is a false double foul -- read the definition (something liek "a foul by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock starts, but at least one of the components of a double foul is missing).

Since the foul on B1 was during a dead ball, it's a technical foul. So, any player on B can shoot the throws.

Dan and Mark, I believe that there is no such thing as an intentional T in the women's game. I don't know how it would be handled, but I'm pretty sure that the women's side doesn't use the "intentional T" designation.

false double foul?
 

Would not a false double foul be a common foul on both teams when at least one component is missing of a double foul. I have not read where an intentional foul is a false double foul. By definition alone, dead ball automatically makes it an intentional foul and not a false double foul, therefor the person foulded would have to shoot the freethrows. Show me what I'm reading wrong into this situation.

Re: false double foul?
 

What rulebook are you reading? There's no definition in any rule book that I know of stating that the dead ball makes it an intentional foul. The second foul doesn't have to be any specified or particular kind, and it doesn't have to occur during a dead ball either. The second foul can be any type of personal or technical foul, and that foul just has to occur sometime <b>before</b> the clock starts after the first foul was called to make it part of a "false double" foul. AAMF, the first foul doesn't have to be a certain type either. It could be personal or technical too, and could also be any of the different types of personal and technical fouls also.

Well, I do believe that I am reading the NFHS rulebook for the 2004-05 season. Rule 10.3.8 states, " Intentionally or flarantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul,". I dont know about your definition, whatever rulebook you have not been reading, but throwing an elbow when the ball is dead in retaliation, is in no way considered a personal foul. That is at the least, intentional if not flagrant.

Re: false double foul?
 

Lemme try again:

(1) No, they do not have to be <b>common</b> fouls on both teams. Neither one of the fouls has to be a common foul. They can be <b>any</b> combination of any type of foul by either team--i.e. common foul, intentional personal foul, flagrant personal foul, player control foul, technical foul, intentional technical foul, flagrant technical foul or a team technical foul.

(2) No, by definition a dead ball does <b>not</b> automatically make it an intentional foul. A dead ball foul could be a technical foul, an intentional technical foul, a flagrant technical foul or a team technical foul. Intentional fouls can be either personal or technical in nature.

The point is that it doesn't matter what <b>kind</b> of foul is called- or whether it is the first or second foul foul called. All that matters is that the fouls are called in the order outlined in the definition of a false double foul. One foul of any kind is called. Then, before the clock starts again, another foul of any kind is called. You penalize each foul in the the order that they occur. That's a false double foul.

Yes, it's intentional, or flagrant. But, It's an intetnional (or flagrant) TECHNICAL, not an intentional or flagrant PERSONAL foul (conact while the ball is dead is ignored unless it's intentional or flagrant (or ariborne shooter), in which case it's a technical foul).

Since it's a technical foul, any eligible team B member can shoot the throws.

If the contact had been while the ball was live, it would be a personl foul (whether common, intentional or flagrant). In that instance, B1 would have to shoot the throws.

Chuck, I believe I ended my post with the words "NCAA men".

You should assume by "NCAA men" I mean my interpretation applies to NCAA men's rules. Not NCAA women's rules.

I know that. I was offering it more as a "point of information" than as a correction. Since Mark was addressing men's and women's rules, and you only addressed men's rules, I just thought I would make it clear that the application was different on the women's side. Didn't seem like such a dumb idea at the time. . .

Re: Re: false double foul?
 

Point of information. In NCAA men's rules, dead ball contact is an intentional technical. It is, of course, still possible to have a direct technical for unsporting conduct (which would not be an intentional technical) during a dead ball.

No no, it wasn't a dumb idea, it was a great idea! (Don't want to upset any of the folks who wander by here humming "Give Peace a Chance".)

Re: Re: Re: false double foul?
 

Point of information. Under NCAA men's rules, dead ball <i>contact</i> can also be called a <b>flagrant</b> technical foul too. True? That was my point. There are other options other than always having an intentional technical foul.