Ok, interesting situation here. During JV warmups Team A (the home team) is warming up. Team B (visiting team) has yet to come onto the floor to warm up. Therefore the V of Team A starts to shoot around. A V player dunks the ball. So here's my question. We've got one T for the player dunking, now he is on the floor, so whenever you go to report the T you are probably going to find that he is not in the book, so that would be another T. My question is, what if this player was not eligble to be playing in the JV game (he's a senior). What would you have to do?

Since he is most likely a Varsity player and won't play in the JV game I would treat him as a spectator and tell them to clear the floor. They need to be off there anyway so that when the visitors do come out they can get right into warm ups. Don't penalize the JV because of and idiot on the V, let the coaches know though so that they can get it under control.

If he isn't going to be a player in your game then he isn't part of the team so no technical should be issued. As w_sohl says, just tell the coaches and they'll knock him on the head a couple of times.

Z

True, but if he was in his warmup uniform, then you would assume he was part of the team.

OK fine. But when you got to the scorer's book, you would find that he wasn't in the book. Then you'd ask the JV coach what was going on and he'd tell you that it's a varsity player. You would not call a T, but you'd ask the JV coach to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Any decent coach would then give the varsity goofball two lashes with a wet noodle.

Z

Kick him off the court. Maybe he'll be stupid enough to do it during the V warmups. Then whack in style!!!!

Thanks Z

Or maybe he's pregame entertainment like the guy in the gorilla suit the dunks off a trampoline. Give him a T too!!!

I am going to work backwards on this post.

I do not know about MichiganHSAA, but the OhioHSAA has no rules that prohibit a senior from playing on a jr. varsity team. Afterall, maybe you have a senior who had early season knee surgery and you want him to get some playing time before the start of the playoffs to see if his knee is ready.

The jr. varsity team is on the court warming up and a "player," in uniform, is on the court with the jr. varsity team during warm-ups. You do not know that the "player" is on the varsity and this "player" dunks the ball. This "player" has dunked a dead ball. The dunk occurs (a) before the ten minute mark, and (b) after the ten minute mark.

In both (a) and (b) a direct techincal foul is charged to the "player" and an indirect technical foul charged to the head coach of the jr. varsity team. The question that now must be answered is whether "player's" name is to be added to the scorebook? And to be honest, I do not know what the answer is to this question. My inclination is to not add the name in (a) and to add the name in (b), which means that "player's" jr. varsity team is charged a team technical foul for changing its roster.

MTD, Sr.

I have a suggestion: Just ask the kid to stop the nonsense and just shoot around. That way you do not have to start the game off looking like a policeman who is just sitting along the side of the road waiting for someone to go by one mile over the speed limit and give them a ticket for speeding. Just casually stroll up to the guy (or gal, after last year's slam dunk contest in the MickeyD's game) and say "hey, I don't want your school to have to get a T and neither do you, right?" They will say yes and you just say, "Well, please don't dunk anymore during this JV warmup or anytime you see one of us, alright?" I am sure they will happily agree and all will be well. Just my humble opinion though....

how can you give them a T when you do not have jurisdiction for that game. The Varsity players are not about to participate in the JV game, therefore you do not have jurisdiction. Same thing if they were to dunk during halftime of the game or during half time of the girls game if they play girls and boys back to back.

Of course you have it, you are working the JV game.

You have a point with regard to girls dunking the ball during halftime of the boys' game, BUT,

lets get back to the pregame where everybody in uniform is the same sex. When "player" decided to warm-up with the JV squad, he assumed the risk, that if he did something stupid, the JV team would pay for his stupidity.

It is not the officials' job to poll all of the players on the court to see who is a JV player and who is a VAR player. Once "player" dunks a dead ball during the officials' jurisdiction, the die has been cast and the Rubicon crossed, especially if a coach from the opposing team has also witnessed "player" dunking the dead ball.

MTD, Sr.

No, no, no... some common sense here Mark. He's not on the JV team for crying out loud. Don't go looking for trouble. When you find out he's not on the JV team, just let the JV and/or varsity coach deal with it. If a coach from the opposing team witnesses it, all you have to do is say, "coach, he's not on the JV team. I've sent him packing."

If common sense isn't enough, let's look at some definitions in rule 4-34:

A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform <b> and </b> is eligible to become a player. He's not eligible to play in the JV game cuz' he's not on the team, it's as simple as that.

He's also not bench personnel. He isn't part of your game. No T is necessary by rule nor common sense.

Z

Zman:

With all due respect, I would rather an official use logic rather than common sense.

The officials arrive at the court. Do the officials go to each player on the court and ask them if he is on the jr. varsity team or the varsity team? And if a player tells him that he is on the varsity team, do the officials instruct him to leave the court? The answer to my first question is no, and why is my answer no? Because logic dictates that the officials do no such thing. Why would the officials even what to do such questioning? Because there is no reason for them to do so. Since the answer to my first question is no, then the officials do not even have to answer my second question of what to do if they discover a varsity player warming up with the jr. varsity team.

I learned from my high school geometry teacher to never assume because it makes an *** of U and ME. But then I learned in engineering school that one can make educated assumptions, declare them in advance, so that if one's solution is not correct one can revise his educated assumptions and craft a new solution.

In the case being discussed, the officials' educated assumption should be that all players in uniform are part of the team which is going to play in that game. Why? Because they have no reason not to assume otherwise.

You stated that the varsity player is not a jr. varsity player by quoting NFHS R4-S34. You stated that since he is a varsity player and not a jr. varsity player is not part of my game and is not under the officials jurisdiction. When the officials arrived on the court, the game is know theirs and they do have jurisdiction of the court and everybody in uniform on the court. Which begs the question once more, How would you know that the varsity player was not an eligible jr. varsity player? You don't know for the reasons that I have stated above.

Futhermore please read my post of December 14, 2004, at 10:48pm. I think that it will help you even more in understanding this situation.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Dec 15th, 2004 at 09:47 AM]

You can't penalize a team for the actions of a person who is not on that team, except in very specific situations. (And even then, we're told only to penalize when absolutely necessary). In this situation, the kid who dunks isn't on the team. That makes him a follower of the team, nothing more. Would you T a kid in street-clothes who came on the court and dunked? No, you'd tell him to get off the court. Same here. No penalty. Get him off the court.

Chuck,

I would agree. But whenever he dunks the ball and you go to report the T and he's not in the book because he doesn't play, then you've got a heck of a problem. BTW: This didn't happen to me. I was watching a V warm up on one end the their JV on the other and thought "what if". Oh yeah, Chuck have you started using pipe bits instead of wrapping your whistle?? :)

T Jones

I guess I just don't see the problem, Tanner. Somebody at the table is going to know that the kid is on the varsity, not JV. So you're going to know right away that the T isn't applicable. So you say, "He's not on the team? Ok, thanks. HEY! Get off the court!"

Nope, I like the tape, and it's part of my pre-game ritual now. Just one more of those things that puts me in a basketball frame of mind.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
In the case being discussed, the officials' educated assumption should be that all players in uniform are part of the team which is going to play in that game. Why? Because they have no reason not to assume otherwise.

<B>
Sure, I'd assume that too. But when new information presents itself and I find that the kid is not on the team, I don't give a T and I just get him to leave the floor. Simple as that with no lasting controversy or abusing my referee powers. I just can't imagine a situation where I give a "T" to someone who isn't a player.
</B>
Z

Hmmmmmm. Do you use the rules? Or do you use an "assumption"?

Tough choice! :D

Thought from an unqualified-but streetsmart poster
 

Sometimes it is better to be "smart" than "right".

Show some skill and artistry, and deal with the situation without putting a "T" on the JV team. Be a leader and teacher on the court, not the cop in "Les Miserable"

IMHO you should be looking for reasons NOT to interject yourself into the game, not ways to show off your ultimate power and authority.

I agree, there are many ways to get out of this situation without a T and nobody will make a big fuss. I think I would either know they aren't on the JV team because they didn't come out for warm-ups with the JV team or tell them to shoot at their own end if I came out after they did at which point they would tell me they aren't on the JV team. Either way, you can let them shoot and say something to him when he dunks or tell them to get off of the court until their warm-ups before their game.

usually varsity players want to make sure people don't confuse them with a JV player, so the only reason for him to be out there is to "show off". i think i'd just let him know his time is in an hour and a half and since i'm on that game to, i'll be watching. don't get mad about it, say it with a smile and he should go peacefully. maybe bring it up with the coach because next time, the refs might not handle it like we did today.

Administrative...
 

Sounds to me like this is an administrative problem so if you want to get involved fine but you could go to the administrator on duty and have him address this issue. It certainly has no penalty associated with it. No sense looking for trouble because it is going to find you anyway!! You are an official not a policeman.

What kind (of tape) do you use?

Black tape that you'd put on the blade of a hockey stick.

So if I sent you a pipe bit to try by snail mail, would you try it?

If you went to the trouble of sending it, I would probably try it to be polite; but it would have to be a significant improvement to get me to quit using the tape.

Maybe I could put the tape over the pipe bit. . .