Tonight I had a girls varsity game with the players not having much for skills. This is one of my 1st high school games of the season and compared to the 25 NAIA and D-2 women's college games that I have worked so far... the lack of skill threw me off a couple of times.... Once on this particular play I wish that I could see again.

Defensive rebound under the hoop with the shooting team bumping the girl with the ball slightly.... Or so I thought.

The girl had the ball and after the bump held her pivot foot and pivoted 3 times slowly backwards to gain / keep her ballance. On her last swing of her non pivot foot she stepped on the endline OOB.

I felt it was to late to go back and get the foul as the girl that made the contact was now getting back on D and she was behind the 3 point line... (A long ways away from the play). I blew my whistle and gave it back to the same team.

As you would imagin the crowd and the coach sure didn't like the call. After a bit of play there was a time out and I waited for the team to come out after the huddle and I explained that I had passed on a foul. She ( the coach) was fine with it after I had a chance to explain.

Here is my question......... What would you have done? Called the foul? Or.... Pass on the foul and give it back to the same team? or..... Call the OOB and give it to the other team? I really didn't feel that the "bump" was enough to have a foul but as it played out......... It was an advantage. Whats your call?

It's better to be late and right.

The contact did not immediately put the player at a disadvantage, but it did cause her to violate.

Why?

You are penalizing a player for getting pushed. If she violates you HAVE to call the foul, no matter how late it is, are job is to get it right and not to try to look good.

I'll go with Bushref.. if she just maybe tip toed the line and then moved it back in, i'm probably not going to see it, and let them play on... but if it's real obvious you have to get the foul...better late than never, and have to explain it!!

Why should this "incidental contact" be penalized as a foul? Seems to me the rebounder had plenty of time to find her balance and stay in bounds, or pass the ball to someone in better position. Even if she didn't, I'd find it hard to call this a foul. More like she just happened to be in a bad place to get the rebound and stepped out of bounds. But I didn't actually see it, of course.

Calling this a foul gives undue advantage to the rebounding team. (But I'll save advantage/disadvantage for another thread) Maybe had B1 not been so close to the end line, Team A may have gotten the ball back.

Hartsy

I say if you passed on the foul, you have to call the violation. The force out rule is no in the book, so that option doesn't exist.

From what I'm reading, it took 3 pivots to regain her balance, so you've got a "foul" that took place 3 or 4 seconds ago, with no whistle. I'm not going back 4 seconds to get it right. I just missed it. The violation can't be ignored, and ignoring the violation is not a viable solution. We all know better than to issue a make-up call.

You missed the foul, move on. The player violated by stepping on the line, call the violation.

Grail:

Your last paragraph says it all. Well put.

MTD, Sr.

I never once considered this to be a " make up " call. But do consider this to be a " Fair " call.

It was too late to call the foul even though there was an advantage. We are taught to have a slow whistle and see the whole play. 99.9 % of the time this works well but on this play it came back and bit me.

At the time I didn't consider the bump to be any advantage at all so I passed on the Foul.

The bump did cause the player to go out of bounds as she never regained her ballance so I did what I felt was fair at the time... I gave the ball back to the team that was put at a disadvantage.

I have passed on contact in the past but it has always seamed to work itself out. This play it didn't.

I have never nor will I ever pass on a player "barely" stepping on the OOB line. To me this is a cut and dried call that must be called every time.

I agree that calling the OOB and giving it to the other team would have been the easy thing to do.... But is it fair?

I just did what I felt was fair in this sittuation and would like to hear what others would have done after passing on the innitial contact.

Am I wrong for this?

Sometimes it takes a few seconds to determine advantage/disadvantage. I had a college player get bumped on a rebound and I had thought that the player had cleared the rebound -- but within a second or two the player fell.

I didn't "miss" anything. I saw the contact. Once it was clear to me that the contact put the rebounder at a disadvantage it went from "contact" to a "foul".

Better late than never and since I'm going to take grief from someone, I'd rather it be the coach whose player caused the "violation."

--Rich

In the situation described, I think I'd call the actual violation and forget about the foul you passed on. Half of the crowd isn't going to like your call anyway, so why not get it right? You can always make sure you get the next bump for sure.

Pass on the foul. Good move. It's not a foul; quit considering it as such.

Rebounder had ample opportunity to gain her balance. She didn't. She could have gained that balance. She could have passed. She could have began a dribble. She didn't. Move on.

She stepped on the line. That's violation - call it and enforce it properly. Remember, you didn't have a foul. Now you have a violation; call it. She had opportunity to recover and she didn't. Not your fault. And as you have already stated (by not calling a foul), it is also not the defense's fault.

What if she fell down instead of stepped on the line? Would you be willing to call that traveling violation and then give her the ball back?

I know if I was your partner, I would sure be wondering what you were doing.

I doubt this would fall under incidental contact. This contact put the rebounder at a severe disadvantage, but if I pass on the foul then wait a few seconds, I'm not calling the foul anymore. I'll just call the violation. It may not be fair, but you shouldn't ignore the violation and the penalties it carries with it.

Anyone that has a patient whistle has been caught in this situation before. It's very rare (if you're good), but inevitable.

You asked what I do, I go with my gut. My internal clock will tell me if I can go back and get that foul. In this situation, it sounds like I'm calling the violation.

I tend to think gut feeling goes here. Slow whistles are great, but if it was a kinda-sorta-maybe foul, and you didn't call it within one or two seconds - it's probably not a foul.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Like I said, our job is not to look good, it's to be fair and to get the call right.

You can't say in one sentence the contact put the rebounder at a severe disadvantage, and then in another, why should you ignore the penalty for the violation.

You are ignoring a foul, rewarding the fouler and penalizing the player that was fouled. How can that be right?

Oh MY!!!
 

You know, after you speak up about something... especially in a curt manner, it is sure to happen to you.

Passed on a foul last night and subsequently passed on a violation. Should have know better than to make my earlier comments.

Home team is getting kind of clobbered on rebounds. Home girl gets both hands on rebound. Visitor is grasping for her share of the rebound and bumps the home player enough to cause ONE foot to move a couple of steps. I'm getting ready to call a foul if anything more happens to disrupt the home rebounder. Visitor defense suddenly clears and rebounder is alone. Rebounder makes big sweeping pivot to clear the ball.... ooops that was a different foot than the last one she pivoted on...

Nice strong move on the non-pivot foot. Ooh well. Nobody said a word. They probably would have if I had called the travel.

Just goes to show the validity of the statement "Had To Be There."

Actually ended out being a good, close game. HTBT :D

Re: Oh MY!!!
 

Not necessarily. Tough to make a hard-and-fast rule, as in:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/highscho...hool-34104.htm

Personally, you can put me in the half/fast category.

Re: Re: Oh MY!!!
 

The only thing I'm left wondering is how the score can be 59-57 with 40 seconds left, and 65-55 at the end of the game. How did the losing team lose two points?!!?!

From a fan's perspective, first let me say that I am not at all envious of your job. :)

With that said, I would rather see the right call, even it goes against the team I'm cheering for.

There was a somewhat similar situation last night at a small-town rivalry game (BIG rivalry game...always brings out the worst in both sides).

Game is tied with 0:45 left. A1 deflected B1's pass, gained control and started dribbling down the sideline. B1 then made contact with the quicker A1, A1 stepped out of bounds, then stepped back in bounds and resumed his dribble down the sideline.

Referee whistled for an OOB violation by A1.

If I've read the rules correctly, shouldn't A1 have been called for a technical foul?

Since A1 was not fouled (according to the no-call), A1 MUST have left the court of his own volition, thereby committing a technical foul (I'm sure THAT would've gone over real well with the crowd :) ).

I understand it is easier to think about these things in hindsight as opposed to heat of the moment, I just prefer accuracy regardless of the consequences, as I mentioned earlier.

I'm just curious to know others' opinions.

Re: Re: Re: Oh MY!!!
 

If you read closely (do squirrels have good eyesight?) - you'll see that the score was apparently 59-57, but a basket was taken away from the team with 57 points - apparently because a foul had been called before the layup.

If B1 made sufficient contact with A1 to force A1 out-of-bounds, then a foul should have been called on B1. If no foul was called, then you can only call a technical foul on A1 if A1 went out-of-bounds to gain an illegal advantage. That wasn't the case in this situation, so the only call that you can make on A1 would be a violation for stepping on a line while dribbling. You don't call T's on the shooter for going out of bounds after making a layup, do you? Make sense?

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the welcome, JR.

I agree B1 should have been called for the foul.

The tricky part here is "of his own volition".

Is A1 legally out of bounds as a result of contact with B1?

Is A1 allowed to come back on the court and resume the dribble (assuming the ball is never out of bounds).

It seems to be a moot point if a foul should have been called.

I don't think the layup scenario would be relevant, because A1 would not be the first person to touch the ball after a made basket.

Regardless, thanks for the input.

(FYI, I'm a rules buff...something my golf buddies REALLY appreciate. :) )

Or, was the defensive play what forced A1 OOB but was not sufficient for a foul. Perhaps B1 made it legally to the spot and A1 ran into B1. There can be no foul and also have A1 end up OOB without it being of his own volitoin. It may be due to good defense or a poor reaction to the defense.

I agree (I think). If B1 had LGP against A1 and there was no foul, the only logical conclusion is that A1 left the court of his own volition to get around B1 (assuming B1 had LGP), thus breaching the rule.

This was not the case, though. A1 was quicker than B1, and made it to the spot faster than B1.

The rule makes sense to me (although I prefer the NCAA penalty...violation rather than a T).

In light of the way the officials were calling the game that night (they appeared to be letting rough play slide a bit), I would've preferred a no-call (inaccurate, but CONSISTENTLY inaccurate).

A1 made a good play on the pass, B1 hustled to try and get the ball back (thus contacting A1), but A1 had passed B1 once he came back in bounds and was on a fast break.

But again, ultimately, I prefer the game to be called as accurately as possible.

After all, IMO, the purpose of any sporting activity is not just to win, but to learn sportsmanship.

If one takes the position that it is OK to let some rules slide, then ultimately all rules will slide. Then you could have coaches that encourage their teams to break the rules until the officials say something about it, which could help lead to a society that encourages winning over sportsmanship.

But, I digress.

As I said in my first post, I am not envious of your job. :)

DownTownTonyBrown

"I know if I was your partner, I would sure be wondering what you were doing."
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One man practicing sportsmanship is far better than 50 preaching it.
- Knute Rockne
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Tony, If you were my partner I would be wondering why you wern't watching off ball. We can't be having four eyes all on just one player.

Just giving you a hard time........... I couldn't pass one that one :)