Confused

[Dudly]

This got me thinking.

A1 is driving to the basket. B1 steps in front of him to take a charge. B1 was late, never established position, and was backpedaling in the same direction as A1 was driving. I call B1 called for the block.

Got into a discussion with a friend about this play. He thinks that B1 could obtain legal position and still be moving backwards, have A1 run into him, and take the charge. All this is taking place within 2 steps distance.

[Kelvin green]

I am not sure I can visualize stepping in front and backpedaling at the same time

1) Time and Distance is never a consideration when you are dealing with Player with ball so the two steps you mentioj is irrelevant

2) If the person establishes legal guarding position, Both feet on floor, facing offensive player, (and not closing in)

then the guard can back peddle to maintain position (forget the myth of being set)

3) Nearly all the time if the contact happens in torso area the foul is on the offense.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
I am not sure I can visualize stepping in front and backpedaling at the same time

1) Time and Distance is never a consideration when you are dealing with Player with ball so the two steps you mentioj is irrelevant

2) If the person establishes legal guarding position, Both feet on floor, facing offensive player, (and not closing in)

then the guard can back peddle to maintain position (forget the myth of being set)

3) Nearly all the time if the contact happens in torso area the foul is on the offense.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dan_ref]

Pretty much what Kelvin said, except to add if the defender gets his position while the shooter is in the air then it's a block.

See the speech?

[Dudly]

Dan...Didn't see the speech. I'll have to watch the highlights tonight.

I'm not sure I understand point #2. I'm not comprehending how he can back peddle to maintain position. I think I have the play set in my mind. It all occurred in the paint in a space of about 5 feet from start to finish. I could understand if A1 was dribbling down the court with B1 back peddling and A1 running into him.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Dudly
Dan...Didn't see the speech. I'll have to watch the highlights tonight.

I'm not sure I understand point #2. I'm not comprehending how he can back peddle to maintain position. I think I have the play set in my mind. It all occurred in the paint in a space of about 5 feet from start to finish. I could understand if A1 was dribbling down the court with B1 back peddling and A1 running into him.

Once you obtain legal guarding position it is maintained as you back peddle, or even move in any direction except towards the player with the ball.

The speech was what you would expect, highlight imo was he gave the link which I've put in my sig below.

[thumpferee]

who initiated the contact?

doubt it was on the defense considering he was backpedaling!

[mick]

Originally posted by Dudly
This got me thinking.

A1 is driving to the basket. B1 steps in front of him to take a charge. B1 was late, never established position, and was backpedaling in the same direction as A1 was driving. I call B1 called for the block.

Got into a discussion with a friend about this play. He thinks that B1 could obtain legal position and still be moving backwards, have A1 run into him, and take the charge. All this is taking place within 2 steps distance.

Dudly,
Yes, if B1 had established LGP, he may still move backwards while being protected by rule.
However, you already established that B1 did not do that.
mick

[Dudly]

Mick,
No he did not establish LGP. He moved into the path of A1 as A1 was going in for the layup. A1 had already taken one step and was preparing to lay the ball in.
The discussion with my friend was more of a "what if" thing. This thread has made me realize that the defender can still be moving and have LGP. I was always under the mindset that you had to be planted and take the hit to get the charge. I was wrong.

Thanks...Dudly

[mick]

Originally posted by Dudly
I was always under the mindset that you had to be planted and take the hit to get the charge.

Good job, Dudly.
You own it now.
mick

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Dudly
He moved into the path of A1 as A1 was going in for the layup. A1 had already taken one step and was preparing to lay the ball in.

That doesn't mean the defender didn't have (or obtain) LGP.

I trust that if you were there that the defender didn't obtain LGP. But, the statements you made above arent' sufficient to show that to be true.

[IowaMike]

I think a lot of officials have trouble with the block/player control call, especially early in their careers. It is something I have tried to work on and feel I have become a lot better at calling over the past few years. I believe that a lot of us bail out the offense way too often on this call. It has also been my experience that I get a lot more heat from coaches for calling the player control foul than the block. People just seem more inclined to accept a blocking call but coaches never seem to think that their offensive player is responsible for the contact. I think it is because coaches in general (and most definitely fans) don't understand what legal guarding position truly is.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
I am not sure I can visualize stepping in front and backpedaling at the same time

1) Time and Distance is never a consideration when you are dealing with Player with ball so the two steps you mentioj is irrelevant

2) If the person establishes legal guarding position, Both feet on floor, facing offensive player, (and not closing in)

then the guard can back peddle to maintain position (forget the myth of being set)

3) Nearly all the time if the contact happens in torso area the foul is on the offense.

Well said! LPG is there or it is not. Sure the defender can peddle backwards. If LGP was established, it is a PCF.

[justacoach]

Dudly, glad you made it here to get unconfused. As a coach, we teach specifically to the point of the rule (4-23-3). It is very disheartening to have one of our kids buzzed by an official who is laboring under your previous misconception.
Almost forgot one of the mantras of this forum...
Referee the Defense

[Dudly]

Justacoach, I've been confused my whole life. Ever tried to figure out why the other side of the pillow is cooler? Must be quantumphysics or something....I have already started to adjust my thought processing IRT this. The crowd loved the call (at least half of them did).