This got me thinking.

A1 is driving to the basket. B1 steps in front of him to take a charge. B1 was late, never established position, and was backpedaling in the same direction as A1 was driving. I call B1 called for the block.

Got into a discussion with a friend about this play. He thinks that B1 could obtain legal position and still be moving backwards, have A1 run into him, and take the charge. All this is taking place within 2 steps distance.

I am not sure I can visualize stepping in front and backpedaling at the same time

1) Time and Distance is never a consideration when you are dealing with Player with ball so the two steps you mentioj is irrelevant

2) If the person establishes legal guarding position, Both feet on floor, facing offensive player, (and not closing in)

then the guard can back peddle to maintain position (forget the myth of being set)

3) Nearly all the time if the contact happens in torso area the foul is on the offense.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Pretty much what Kelvin said, except to add if the defender gets his position while the shooter is in the air then it's a block.

See the speech?

Dan...Didn't see the speech. I'll have to watch the highlights tonight.

I'm not sure I understand point #2. I'm not comprehending how he can back peddle to maintain position. I think I have the play set in my mind. It all occurred in the paint in a space of about 5 feet from start to finish. I could understand if A1 was dribbling down the court with B1 back peddling and A1 running into him.

Once you obtain legal guarding position it is maintained as you back peddle, or even move in any direction except towards the player with the ball.

The speech was what you would expect, highlight imo was he gave the link which I've put in my sig below.

who initiated the contact?

doubt it was on the defense considering he was backpedaling!

Dudly,
Yes, if B1 had established LGP, he may still move backwards while being protected by rule.
However, you already established that B1 did not do that.
mick

Mick,
No he did not establish LGP. He moved into the path of A1 as A1 was going in for the layup. A1 had already taken one step and was preparing to lay the ball in.
The discussion with my friend was more of a "what if" thing. This thread has made me realize that the defender can still be moving and have LGP. I was always under the mindset that you had to be planted and take the hit to get the charge. I was wrong.

Thanks...Dudly

Good job, Dudly.
You own it now.
mick

That doesn't mean the defender didn't have (or obtain) LGP.

I trust that if you were there that the defender didn't obtain LGP. But, the statements you made above arent' sufficient to show that to be true.

I think a lot of officials have trouble with the block/player control call, especially early in their careers. It is something I have tried to work on and feel I have become a lot better at calling over the past few years. I believe that a lot of us bail out the offense way too often on this call. It has also been my experience that I get a lot more heat from coaches for calling the player control foul than the block. People just seem more inclined to accept a blocking call but coaches never seem to think that their offensive player is responsible for the contact. I think it is because coaches in general (and most definitely fans) don't understand what legal guarding position truly is.

Well said! LPG is there or it is not. Sure the defender can peddle backwards. If LGP was established, it is a PCF.

re:confused
 

Dudly, glad you made it here to get unconfused. As a coach, we teach specifically to the point of the rule (4-23-3). It is very disheartening to have one of our kids buzzed by an official who is laboring under your previous misconception.
Almost forgot one of the mantras of this forum...
Referee the Defense

Justacoach, I've been confused my whole life. Ever tried to figure out why the other side of the pillow is cooler? Must be quantumphysics or something....I have already started to adjust my thought processing IRT this. The crowd loved the call (at least half of them did).

A) I'm having trouble with the both feet on the floor thing. Doesn't that infer being "set"?

B) Isn't a PCF if, while officiating the defense, we see that the offense initiates the contact.

Thanks, Stan

Stan, the way I see it, there are two parts to the equation..
OBTAINING LGP where you must be facing, feet on the floor, and then MAINTAINING LGP. Once you have obtained LGP you earn the prerogatives of moving to maintain it.
We encourage and teach our players to take full advantage of the privilege to move once they have LGP. In a perfect world, all officials would be aware of the distinctions involved.

Both feet on the floor does not mean set.

For example B1 is trying to get in front of A1 and jumps in front of A1. (There is a picture of this in the illustrated rule book) Remember No time and distance. so B1 jumps into the path of A1 (laterally so he is no closing distance) ...

1) Both feet hit the floor at same time. PC foul

2) One foot hits other is still im air B1 has not established LGP. Block


My experience over past years tells me that if the player is on the floor moving about and trying to play defense both feet are on the floor... They way both feet are not on floor is in a slide to try and cut off a player (most of the time it is a trip anyway)

I would caution on the "Offense Initiates Contact" as the reason to call a PCF. I believe this is a myth that you cannot substantiate by rule. An Offense player may be the one who forces contact but if the defense is not in position correctly foul may be on Defense. For example defense slides and one foot is OOB and there is contact, by rule the foul is on Defense. (unless there is something intentional or flagrant)

The best thing to do is know all the definitions. and call it by the rule.

Referee the Defense means you know where defense is, what they did, why they did it, and how! We all know what the offensive player is trying to do.. By refereeing the defense you will know if he had LGP on a PC/Block situation. You'll know how may steps they take on a pick...etc

It doesn't infer anything. You might infer something after reading it, if it implied something.

Just tidying up my grammatical corner of cyberspace. :)

True.

Now if I may...
"In a perfect world, all coaches would_________"

I guess we can fill in the blank(s). :)

I always look for shoulders square on the defense to determine if a legal guarding position has been established. Therefore, being "set" has no bearing on the play.