This happened last Friday and was brought up in our association meeting on Saturday.

B1 fouls A1 during a rebound. A is in the bonus. The R called the foul and goes to report. As he is reporting the table notifies him of a descrepancy in the score. The R blows his whistle and turns to his partners and verbally tells them to wait a moment. In the mean time the players have lined up for the 1 and 1 free throw. As the R is conferring with the table, he hears a whistle blow behind him and turns to see the ball going through the basket. What had happened is that the lead administered the FT and while A1 was in the shooting motion (just prior to release), the Center blew his whistle, knowing that the R was still at the table.

This was a prime example of failing to communicate effectively - even though communication was attempted.

The Ref on the floor called his crew together to determine exactly what had happened and when the whistle was blown. After gathering the facts, the R ruled that the FT counts, because the shooting motion has started. Even though the R wanted time to be out (while the issue was resolved), the lead made the ball live by administering the FT attempt. The scoring table issue was resolved and play resumed with the second shot at the foul line.

When I heard the play, I think the crew made the correct decision on the court. Others in our chapter felt that the FT should be disallowed because the R had called time-out to correct a scoring table issue and therefore should not have taken place. When play was to be resumed, A1 would shoot the first shot of a 1 and 1.

I am interested in your thoughts on this. Did the crew get it right?

Sounds like the ball was dead when the R went to the table. Also sounds like a correctable error.

Common sense = I am not going to disallow a free throw because the crew made a bondhead mistake, especially since the ball was to remain dead until made available for the subsequent free throw and there was no way for Team B to inbound it quickly and do something.

Huddle, count the free throw, fix the score, say you're sorry and administer the back half of the bonus.

Situation 3 in this year's interp is a similar play (FT administered while another official is trying to get a sub in for a DQ'd player). Ruling: FT counts.

it was made live when the lead administered the ball...the fact that the R was at the table doesn't make the ball dead....what is correctable about it?

I guess it's fortunate the free throw was made, and so the players had to line up for the second free throw. What would have happened if the free throw was missed, and one of the crew had his/her back to the play while talking to the table??

Don't you think the free throw would have been re-taken?

I was just thinking that since the R blew the whistle that its was dead, but communication is the big issue here. The correctable was just a speculation on my part, sorry.

caught in time
 

Two of the officials made the ball live and the throw should count if the throw is shot. However, I think that you have one of the 2 administering officials realizing the R is not ready and blows the play dead before the f. throw is shot.

That makes this play altogether different than Bob's interp. play.

No the throw should not have been retaken, it would be just like any other free throw...it is no different than an official losing focus for a minute during the game while listening to a coach, or anything else..unfortunate yes...correctable or a dead ball, I really don't think so...

IREFU2, I agree communication is the issue, but there is really nothing that is correctable here, the free throw is merrited, taken by the correct player, at the correct basket, there has been no eroneous counting or cancelling of a score. With that in mind none of it fits the correctable error situations...so play on....and hope that the half time talk or next pregame is much stronger LOL

I retract the correctable part! Bad assumption on my behalf.

I thought that there was an NCAA bulletin last year that told us the FT would not count. But I just went to look for it and couldn't find the bulletin. Am I making that up, Bob?

Why would you make up the fact that you "just went to look for and couldn't find" the bulletin? ;)

In any event, the NCAA ruling on the same play as the NFHS Interp 3 is different -- in NCAA, redo the FT.

Once more...
 

One of the administering officials blew this play dead BEFORE the shot was released. In this play, the officials did make the ball live by giving the shooter the ball, but the C recognized the R was not ready and killed it before the shot was taken. I don't see this as being different as on any f. throw, once the ball is at the disposal of a f. thrower any official's whistle will kill that play if it comes before the release.

That did not happen in than the Fed interp or the NCAA interp. in which neither of the officials caught the R not ready. They made the ball live and shots were taken.

but, please re-read this play because it clearly has the C killing this play BEFORE the shot.

Re: Once more...
 

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The player was in the act of shooting, the play says just prior to releasing the ball.

There has to be something to make the ball go dead (not just the officials whistle) even we have to have a reason to blow a live ball dead.

Is the player gaining an advantage by counting the bucket?
It could go both ways; some will say "you awarded the bucket", thus giving the advantage to the offensive player, others will say that the offensive player had to make a shot with a whistle in his/her ear thus giving the initial advantage to the defense.

The first post said that the R blew his whistle because of a discrepancy at the table. I.E. an Officials Time out. The ball is in fact dead until a whistle is blown to but the ball back in play.

No, whistles do not make the ball live, there are very set ways for the ball to become live they are listed in 6-1-1&2...and there is nothing about a whistle there ;)

Difference?
 

joe,

Do you see the difference bewtween the interp play and this original sitch?

interp has R not ready but the 2 officials make the ball live and shots were taken.

this sitch has official not ready but the 2 officials make the ball live but they kill the play BEFORE shots were taken.

there could be numerous reasons to kill a foul shot before it is taken and one of them would be if i realized by partner was elbows and *sshole deep into the Table. If I don't kill it then we'll live with the shots.

Exactly! The ball became live once the administering official placed the ball at the disposal of the free thrower.

My question is, in the original post, the whistle was blown before the release of the free thrower.

Ball was then dead. Start over once the smoke cleared.

I think we are confusing the "ball becoming live" and a ball ready for play. If ONE official calls time, for what ever reason, play has to stop. If one official is not ready, you shouldn't proceed. I re-ask my question from earlier....If I was the R at the table, and the free throws were administered, and the player missed, and I turn around and here come players down the court, I would have blown my whistle, said I was not ready for play, have them re-line up and shoot the 1 and 1.

If the U in two person is talking to the table, and the R tosses the ball anyway, do you proceed with play? I hope not. I would hope U would tell R, we were not ready to start, and retoss.

If one baseball umpire out of 4 on the field calls time out, for whatever reason, time is out. They don't say 3 out of 4 didn't call time out, so we're going to proceed.

FrankHtown, no one is disputing that it shouldn't have been administered...and if the U blew it dead before the release I think it should be re administered...As for turning around and seeing the players come up court, what rule would you use to justify re administering the 1 and 1 ? Oh and good luck explaining it to the coach LOL...and we don't play by baseball rules, you can't compare the two...if I put the ball in play as a basketball official, and my partner isn't ready, that is my fault, my mistake and there is usually very little that can be done, we just continue and go on...

I have no trouble explaining to the coach or anybody "I was not ready. I was taking care of table issues, and the the ball was improperly put into play. We're going back to the free-throw line."

As for a partner putting the ball into play, I'm sure everyone here at one time or another has blown the whistle to stop play while a throw in was in progress to let a player get off the floor for a substitution, rather than call a T for 6 or more on the court. Maybe your co-official didn't see your hand up while the substitution was taking place, but I would guess you did not call a technical, even though the ball was live. THAT is one to explain to a coach. "Coach, I gave your team a technical, cause my partner put the ball in play, while you still had a player leaving the court. Sorry, but you had 6 on the court when the ball became live."

nope I have blown whistles and stopped play before...but the administration of a free throw while I am at the table is different than the players on the court thing. If I am at the table and my partner puts the ball in play, while my back is turned, I am not going to blow it dead in the middle and have a do over.... If they are headed up court after a free throw was administered while I was at the table...I may blow it dead to finish the business at the table, but we will start from where we interupted the game not from the re administration of a free throw.... Where in the rules would I find a rule that allows me to do that??

Here is my take on this situation. I like the NCAA A.R. and dislike the NFHS Casebook Play Ruling. In the play we are discussing the R tell his partners, that there is a problem at the Table and that the problem has to be fixed before the game can continue. What part of those instructions do his partners not understand? The R has said that the game will not continue until the problem at the Table has been fixed, and no matter what his two bonehead partners do after his decision cannot override the R's decision to stop the game.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

I think that this sitch had evolved into a discussion of the Fed interp verses the NCAA interp, but neither applies to this original situation. The lead bounced the ball to the shooter, making it live, but the C blew it dead before the shot was taken.

It almost makes you want to gather the ball and take it with you to the table if you think there might be a possibility that it could be put back in play before you are ready. But, if it happens in my high school game, we are NOT going to have a do over.

I understand what you are saying and I will follow the rules of the game (NFHS or NCAA), but it just galls me that there were members of the officiating team that did not have their heads screwed on correctly, so as to allow something like this to happen.

MTD, Sr.