The Official Forum - Shoot 2 FT's or ball OOB's

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- - Shoot 2 FT's or ball OOB's (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/16756-shoot-2-fts-ball-oobs.html)

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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

I wish you hadn't said that he had started the shooting motion. That's the part that I get stuck on. [/B]

Why? The bottom line is that it's always your judgement whether the player started a shooting motion or a passing motion. Make up your mind which it is and call the appropriate foul. And don't over-think the play. You get enough people second-guessing you without doing the same thing to yourself. [/B][/QUOTE]

I didn't over-think the play. When he made a perfectly good pass, I decided he was not getting FT's as a result of his pass.

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Originally posted by Dan_ref

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Originally posted by BktBallRef

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Originally posted by Dan_ref
Maybe some of us reserve judgement until the play's completed...

Judgment was made when the whistle blew.

Maybe, which is why I'm wondering if the whistle could have been held to make a more informed judgement.

Watching the Uconn/IU game?

This makes no sense. If a player if fouled as he starts a jump, you would wait and see if he passes it or shoots it and then blow the whistle for the foul that occured seconds earlier. These young men can jump pretty darn high and stay in the air a long time. When you "definitely" see a foul, you blow your whistle and then continuing action gives you the result of the play.

I am not a "newbee", the whistle was NOT early! I played the game, have watched the game, and officiated the game, and have yet to see this exact play unfold the way it did.

 Let's change it around a little. What if a player goes into the air with what you feel is the intent to pass the ball. You call a foul, so he then decides to shoot the ball. It hits the rim, but doesn't go in. Are you going to give him the ball OOB's in that case?

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

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Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Maybe some of us reserve judgement until the play's completed...

Judgment was made when the whistle blew.

Maybe, which is why I'm wondering if the whistle could have been held to make a more informed judgement.

Watching the Uconn/IU game?

This makes no sense. If a player if fouled as he starts a jump, you would wait and see if he passes it or shoots it and then blow the whistle for the foul that occured seconds earlier. These young men can jump pretty darn high and stay in the air a long time. When you "definitely" see a foul, you blow your whistle and then continuing action gives you the result of the play.

I am not a "newbee", the whistle was NOT early! I played the game, have watched the game, and officiated the game, and have yet to see this exact play unfold the way it did.

 Let's change it around a little. What if a player goes into the air with what you feel is the intent to pass the ball. You call a foul, so he then decides to shoot the ball. It hits the rim, but doesn't go in. Are you going to give him the ball OOB's in that case?

OK, have it your way then. You're not a newbie. It was a great call, maybe the greatest ever. Nothing like this has ever happened before in the entire history of basketball.

Whatever. And keep tootin' that whistle just as fast as you can! You wouldn't want someone to think you missed one.

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

I wish you hadn't said that he had started the shooting motion. That's the part that I get stuck on.

Why? The bottom line is that it's always your judgement whether the player started a shooting motion or a passing motion. Make up your mind which it is and call the appropriate foul. And don't over-think the play. You get enough people second-guessing you without doing the same thing to yourself. [/B]

I didn't over-think the play. When he made a perfectly good pass, I decided he was not getting FT's as a result of his pass.

[/B][/QUOTE]That was my point. Just make up your mind as to whether it's a pass or a shot, and then make your call. No need for one of those great philosophical discussions like "what came first, the chicken or the egg?".

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

And keep tootin' that whistle just as fast as you can! You wouldn't want someone to think you missed one.
[/B][/QUOTE]Just a thought. I can never remember ever getting my a$$ in trouble by holding off on the whistle a little on any call. Sure can't say that about some of the quick ones I've blown though. Shudder.

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT
No, cuz he heard the whistle, looked towards the elbow and totally passed it towards a teammate. It was a good pass that was caught be an opponent. Does that change your opinion??

Sigh. What if he hadn't been fouled? Would he still have passed the ball, or would he have shot the ball? IF the former, call it a common foul. If the latter, call it a shooting foul.

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT
No, cuz he heard the whistle, looked towards the elbow and totally passed it towards a teammate. It was a good pass that was caught be an opponent. Does that change your opinion??

Sigh. What if he hadn't been fouled? Would he still have passed the ball, or would he have shot the ball? IF the former, call it a common foul. If the latter, call it a shooting foul.

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Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

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Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Maybe some of us reserve judgement until the play's completed...

Judgment was made when the whistle blew.

Maybe, which is why I'm wondering if the whistle could have been held to make a more informed judgement.

Watching the Uconn/IU game?

This makes no sense. If a player if fouled as he starts a jump, you would wait and see if he passes it or shoots it and then blow the whistle for the foul that occured seconds earlier. These young men can jump pretty darn high and stay in the air a long time. When you "definitely" see a foul, you blow your whistle and then continuing action gives you the result of the play.

I am not a "newbee", the whistle was NOT early! I played the game, have watched the game, and officiated the game, and have yet to see this exact play unfold the way it did.

 Let's change it around a little. What if a player goes into the air with what you feel is the intent to pass the ball. You call a foul, so he then decides to shoot the ball. It hits the rim, but doesn't go in. Are you going to give him the ball OOB's in that case? 

OK, have it your way then. You're not a newbie. It was a great call, maybe the greatest ever. Nothing like this has ever happened before in the entire history of basketball.

Whatever. And keep tootin' that whistle just as fast as you can! You wouldn't want someone to think you missed one.

Ok, I'm done with this discussion. I was defending my point, and you yours, we both had good points. I miss a few every game, did so last night on a ball that went OOB's. I have no problem admitting when I do, but as soon as you turn what has been a good debate into a smart--- session I will not go back and forth anymore.

I do appreciate all the discussion, it is how we learn and improve, but I bow out when it gets personal. If you did not intend it that way, then I apologize. Thanks again!

QUOTE:

And the coach reasonably asks "Then why did he pass the ball?" How does the official respond..."because he was fouled"? ....to which any coach worth his salt will reply "How can you possibly know that?" It's a circular argument Juulie....

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I've disagreed with coaches before and I'll disagree again. Why are we making the call based on what a coach responds anyway?

Shooting foul if there's ANY doubt in my mind.

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

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Originally posted by ChuckElias

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Originally posted by MJT
Rule 4-40-2 says "A player is trying for a goal when the player has the ball and in the officials judgement is throwing or attempting to throw for a goal. If he passes it, how can we say he is throwing it for a goal??? This is why I think if he passes it, he "passes" on his FT's as well.

The above RULE is what I think is the best argument for no FT's. He is not "throwing or attempting to throw for a goal" if he PASSED the ball.

PLEASE ARGUE MY POINT ABOVE!!

Sure. Here are two arguments that directly relate to (and refute)the passage above.

1. If he passes it, how can we say he is throwing it for a goal??? Argument #1. You are the one who is not following the rule. You've left out a crucial part of the rule, which I've been trying to explain to you. He doesn't have to throw for goal. He only has to attempt to throw for goal. The attempt is simply the beginning of the throwing motion. Once the throwing motion starts, if he's fouled, then it's in the act of shooting.

2. He is not "throwing or attempting to throw for a goal" if he PASSED the ball. Argument #2. No, obviously he's not attempting to throw for goal once he passes the ball. But he was attempting to shoot if he began the habitual motion which usually preceeds a try.

Now, let me say this. I can't comment on your specific play, b/c I didn't see it to judge whether the shooting motion started. But in your very first post, you said that when he went airborne, you thought he was shooting. If you thought that he started the motion, then you should've given two shots.

I cannot tell myself that he attempted for a goal when he looked at a teammate and passed the ball.

I did "think" he was probably going to shoot when he first was fouled, but when he changed his mind, so did I.

Not that it makes it right or wrong, but I was curious so I tallied up the "shoots" vs OOB's. With the discussion pretty much over accept for rainmaker, Chuck, and I the votes of those who responded on this board are "5 to shoot" and 9 to take it OOB's. I have demonstrated the play to 4 officials now between yesterday and now, all varsity officials, and they all said "without a doubt, it is OOB's."

I guess we may just have to agree to disagree. It has been an interesting debate. Thanks!

He changed his mind? You mean AFTER he got fouled? Then you got it wrong. BTW, it's OK to "agree to disagree" but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
QUOTE:

And the coach reasonably asks "Then why did he pass the ball?" How does the official respond..."because he was fouled"? ....to which any coach worth his salt will reply "How can you possibly know that?" It's a circular argument Juulie....

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I've disagreed with coaches before and I'll disagree again. Why are we making the call based on what a coach responds anyway?

Shooting foul if there's ANY doubt in my mind.

My point wasn't to make the call based on what the coach thinks. My point was that it's not that hard to justify giving shots on this play.