In NCAAW you do not switch if a foul is called in back court unless it is a bonus situation and FT are going to be shot.

As you all probably know by now WA has switched to 3 person in HS this year and since the NF books were printed last year before they switched to the table side reporting everthing regarding swtiching is wrong.

My question is if the T calls a foul in back court are we supposed to do long switches? For example if T is opposite table in back court do we switch with the C or do you just stay put like in NCAAW?

I think the NFHS has a release about this on their site.
But if you are opposite table you would switch with the C, if you are table side you stay the way you are. That's my understanding

[Edited by tjones1 on Dec 2nd, 2004 at 11:19 AM]

tjones1,

If you know where that link is on the NFHS site is, please provide it.

Thanks,

Z

No long switches
 

The IHSA does not use long switches. So what the NF has into place does not apply to us necessarily. All that information is on the memo on our personal IHSA webpage.

Peace

This is a release to the IHSA officials about Long-switch:

In addressing the Long Switch mechanic with 3-person crews, there has been some discussion concerning whether or not a switch should occur when a foul is called in a team’s front-court, there will be no free throws shot, and the subsequent play is going the other way. While officials realize that this year the calling official is to go table side after making his/her call, in any situation where a foul is called, no free throws will be shot, and the play will be going the other way, no long switch needs to occur by the officials in a contest. In the play being described, the calling official simply needs to clear the action on the floor, get to the reporting area and call the foul, and then return to his/her position for the subsequent throw-in.

NFHS Site:
http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...on&head=BT.cfm

I believe that is their release, if the link doesn't work, let me know.

This only talks about communication with the coaches not about switching.

Sorry about that smoref. I thought I saw something on their site about this, maybe not. I'll continue looking.

My interpretation.
 

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...on&head=BT.cfm

I believe the Long Switch in High School is in effect when the Lead calls a foul in the backcourt going to front court with no free throws.

The difference between that and NCAA Women is that the high school reporting area is in the center of the floor while the NCAAW mechanic is to merely clear the players. {A couple steps off the backcourt endline may suffice.}

So, while the high school official is in the reporting area, a partner slides down to administer the throw-in.

mick

If you mean L, yes the Lead goes to table-side to report and becomes New T or New C [tableside], depending on spot.
If you mean T, then T switches with C [tableside] and goes to New L, or New C, depending on the spot. This is not a "Long Switch".

As you can see, different organizations do it differently.

We would have no "long switch" no matter who called the foul. Slide or bump-and-run depending on the throw-in spot and the location of the officials relative to that spot before the foul. IOW, treat the subsequent throw-in just as if the offense had committed a violation at that spot instead of a foul.

In WA, you will only switch if the L is opposite the table when they make the call...if L is already table-side, report the foul, and then go back to your original position (but you are now the new Trail)...the phrase used in the WIAA/WOA training sessions was "V-back"...

SO: Lead calls an illegal screen table-side, steps out and reports foul, steps back and inbounds ball as new T...

But: Lead calls an illegal screen opposite side, steps out to report and then becomes the new C, and old C goes down to handle the inbound and be new Trail...

Hope this helps...

Thank you Rocky,

That is what I was looking for. We were talking about it in our pre-game last night and nobody was sure what the WIAA wants us to do. It was a no league game so it wasn't a big deal but we want to have this down before dist. and state

No problem - it's a little unclear unless you were at one of the WIAA/WOA camps...where in the state are you???

Throw in question (3-whistle)
 

Rocky,
Good description of the V-back...that's what we have been doing per the WOA clinics.

Another question concerning 3-whistle:

Sideline throw-in in backcourt opposite side going to frontcourt...C's side.
Would old C administer the throw-in as new trail and "force" the old L to become new C and old T become new L opposite table?

Diagram 50 Page 66 in the Officials Manual shows this...just wondering if this also applies if it was C's side. (opposite table)

So as a general rule...do we administer throw-ins if the ball goes OOB on our sideline no matter which way we are going?

Re: Throw in question (3-whistle)
 

In 3-man, the new trail has all back court throws-in. If the ball is to be put in on C's side, the C will go down and become to new L, L pulls back into C, and T crosses the court for the throw-in.

This is a great topic! I have had concerns on this as well.

It is my understanding that if, for ex: you are the C, opposite table, and have a foul, you become the C tableside.

If you are table side, same stitch, you are still the C table side.

If you are L opposite table, and have a foul, you become the C.

If you are the L table side, you become the trail.

If you are the L opposite table, you become the C.

If you are the L table side going the other way, you now become the new L. (long switch) T is new T.

If you are the T table side going the other way, you are now the new L.

Did I get them all?

Correct me Please!

thumpferee,

Do not complicate it. All you are doing is going table side on fouls in the front court. You are not automatically going to be the C or the T for example unless you know where the ball is being put in at.

If I call a foul from the C position (opposite table), there is no guarantee I am going to be the C when you switch to the side of the table.

Peace

Thanks Rut!

What if you are the L table side going the other way, ex: Player Control foul. Will you become the L on the long switch, or stay as the T and administer the throw in as the T?

Re: Throw in question (3-whistle)
 

JCurrie got this one right for you RD...T will handle all throw-ins in the back-court, regardless of which side of the court...everybody else slides to correct positions...the one thing I have come across is the L's unwillingness to let go of the sideline oob calls - they keep wanting to call it when the ball goes out on the side, even tho the T has that sideline. Made for a couple of interesting double whistles the other night!

I am in Snohomish County and if you are who I think you are then we have a CC game together on 2/19 but I could be completely wrong.

Are you in Vancouver?



[Edited by smoref on Dec 2nd, 2004 at 03:16 PM]

Hmmm...I am in Vancouver, but on Feb. 19 I am at Pacific Lutheran...could you be Mr. Morris by any chance?

If your area advocates a long switch and you go table side, you might be the C or the L depending on where the ball is going to be put at.

If you live in my area, you will go back to the same position and stay at the same position and become the Trail.

Peace

Sorry about that, It is a D3 game. and yes you are correct sir

I believe JRut explained this the same way we do it in WA state.

The L would go back to the endline and become the new T going the other way...we call this a V-back.

As far as the T crossing the court to take the throw-in from C...that will surely have to be a pre-game item for us guys that have been doing 2-whistle forever.

BTW...I wonder why that scenario is not in the Officials Manual?

Because they publish the book every two years. The changes came up before the new book could come out next year.

Peace

I think we may be talking about two different things here.

I realize the book doesn't come out every year...therefore, the current Officials Manual doesn't show proper switches on certain fouls.

BUT, I am talking about the ball going OOB in the frontcourt and going the other way on C's side opposite table.

The following was posted:
In 3-man, the new trail has all back court throws-in. If the ball is to be put in on C's side, the C will go down and become to new L, L pulls back into C, and T crosses the court for the throw-in

If I'm reading this right...it is not what we have been advised to do in this area of the country.

In fact, I mentioned the above quote to a couple of my college official buddies...and they said the way they do it is the old C goes to new L, the old L becomes the new T (administers ball) and the old T (tableside) becomes the new C (tableside).
(BTW...it doesn't matter if C is tableside or not for this procedure)

This "feels" much better...and is how we did it the other night.

Rocky...do you agree?...or are you saying the old T (tableside) crosses the court to administer the throw-in (opposite table)?

You might know one of the guys I asked...he will be doing a couple games at Seattle Pacific on Dec. 27th and 28th I believe...Mr. Barlow.




[Edited by RookieDude on Dec 3rd, 2004 at 01:11 AM]

The way I read it, both of these procedures are saying exactly the same thing (although one is very convoluted). The difference is that one is going directly from the pre turnover postions to the final postions and the other is starting in the location the official are in before the turnover but labeling what they would be after the turnover (as if the ball had remained inbound as in a steal). Then it makes the adjustment for the location of the ball.

Said another way, the blue one (as I've highlighted above) has the old T first transition to a L by nature of the ball being turned over. However, since the ball is to be thrown in opposite site, that old T/new L instead shifts to the C and the old L/new T must cross the court and the old C/new C instead shifts to the lead.

I've sketched a picture to illustrate this with the colors matching the text highlighted above....

<IMG SRC=http://www.reftown.com/common/images/misc/rotation0001.gif>

Beautiful!

That is exactly how we did it!

Thanks Camaron...your illustrations and explanations were very helpful to this ol' 2-whistle Ref.

And I agree with Cameron - both posts had it right, just looking at the "positions" differently...I've met Mr. Barlow before, a few years ago...he knows his stuff.

I am glad someone brough this up, I had a game the other night and we had that long switch. We pregamed that we would not do the long switch and of course a Varsity Official was sitting in the crowd from our board and blasted us about missing switches. I also went to a womans college camp this summer and they do the bump and slide which means that if there is a foul in the back court and the trail calls it, he/she reports the foul and stays with the ball. I like it like that, no need to rotate if you dont have too. But I guess in two man, they want a new look after the foul has been called. Just my two cents.

If you want total confusion, take a look at what Illinois says we should do. I had a hard time deciphering the presentaion. The "from frontcourt to backcourt" section starts at page 39:

http://www.science.siu.edu/cos/harbe...-mechanics.ppt

Actually, I thought this was a pretty good slide show.

Slide 38, however, is not how we are doing it in this area.

Your slide 38 shows the L calling a foul in the frontcourt, opposite table, no FT's and going the other way...the slide then shows the L going back to the backcourt endline, opposite table, to administer the throw-in.
In our association, we have the old L go tableside, report the foul, and then become new C...and the old C becomes the new T administering the ball on the backcourt endline opposite table...old T becomes new L.
The L should go back, (or V-back) when the call is tableside going the other way....not when the L is opposite table going the other way.
Agree or disagree?

Agree or disagree with what?

IL tells us to do it one way; your association tells you to do it another way. Do it as you're taught.

FWIW, the IL way matches the NCAAW (and, I think, NCAAM) mechanic

Calm down Bobby...

I was just asking for input on what other officials thought...maybe even within my own state of WA.
In fact you answered my question quite well, IMO, with your last statement.

I'm due up for a state tournament berth this year...so I'm just trying to clean up some of this 3-whistle stuff...since I've done only 2-whistle most of my career.

Maybe our association is wrong in how we are doing this mechanic...or maybe I misunderstood...so I'll ask again...
How are some of the other associations handling the mechanic illustrated in Slide 38?

We do it the same way.

L - Tableside
L calls foul in the FC.
L moves to reporting area.
T moves to make the throw-in while L is reporting.
L moves to new L as T is now ready to administer throw-in.

L - Opposite table
L calls foul in the FC.
L moves to reporting area.
C moves T to make the throw-in while L is reporting.
L moves to C as T is now ready to administer throw-in.
Old T moves to new L.

The difference in college and high school is that the NF has a defined reporting area. It makes no sense to move to the reporting area and then back to make the throw-in when a partner can already be in place.

Since college really doesn't use a reporting area, it's a different situation. If your high schpool association is not requiring the calling official to move to the reporting area, I guess the college mechanic would work.

Tony, thanks for your response.
However, we don't do it the same way on the tableside FC foul call by L going the other way though.

We do it the same way.

L - Tableside
L calls foul in the FC.
L moves to reporting area.
T moves to make the throw-in while L is reporting.
L moves to new L as T is now ready to administer throw-in.

We "V-back" or "no long switch" with the L going back to the endline to administer the throw-in.

L - Opposite table
L calls foul in the FC.
L moves to reporting area.
C moves T to make the throw-in while L is reporting.
L moves to C as T is now ready to administer throw-in.
Old T moves to new L

This is the one I had the question about...and it looks like we both do this mechanic the same...which evidently is different than IL...which could be using a college illustration??

BTW, good explanation on the reason college officials may stay put after the foul call, in relation to the reporting area.

I'm plenty calm, thank you.

I just wanted to be sure I understood the question.

They are not saying the same thing at all.

In the one case, old C is new L, old L is new C, and old T is new T, when the correct mechanic is old C to new L, old L to new T, and old T to new C.