Drop it like its HOT!!!
 

tomegun,

It was like a good holiday movie. I laughed, I cried and actually enjoyed your post.

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Peace

Wow, who knew that ... timeouts (!) ... were the problem with society? Let me just suggest that it is not the *form* of discipline that is the/a cause of the problem, but rather the absence of discipline altogether. There are responsible ways to handle discipline using (a) exclusively timeouts and other forms of non-physical discipline (as I am using on my children); and (b) spankings and other forms of both physical and non-physical discipline (as my parents used on me). I am a healthy and balanced person (although the occasional coach and fan doesn't necessarily see it that way!) and my children appear to be healthy and balanced. Just because my children do not get spanked does *not* mean that they get to do whatever they want....

Since the original post was to Whitlock's article, let me observe that Whitlock did *not* say that the incident itself occurred because of race. He suggested that Stern's response to the incident was informed by race and culture considerations. Although I agree that, as a general matter, Whitlock is more ready to see race in situations than I am, I am not ready to dismiss his observations altogether. Whitlock wrote: "We're witnessing a clash of cultures. A predominately white fan base is rejecting a predominately black style of play and sportsmanship." Another forum participant suggested that sportsmanship has no color. On this point, I tend to agree more with Whitlock. I think there are differences in "sportsmanship" -- while I should also quickly point out that many differences cannot be, and should not be, explained by race. Sportsmanship, to me, is about showing respect for the game, for your opponent(s) and for yourself (collectively, as a team, and individually). I recognize that there are differences in what this means. Can the exuberance that an athlete shows for a good play s/he made cross the line and show disrespect? I think so. Can exuberance be "innocently intended" and not meant for disrespect? I think so.

I just think that all of us -- fans, players and other interested parties (including officials) -- ought to not be so quick to take offense. If a guy screams after he blocks my shot in a pick-up game, I think he's a little nuts (after all, it doesn't take much to block my shot...), but whatever. If a person shouts an insult at me, that's really her/his problem, not mine. When Charles Barkley says that "We are first men," I agree with him, but when he says that "if you challenge me I'm going to respond because I am a man" (paraphrasing), I disagree with him. I think I am being an authentic man by being in control of myself and staying disciplined to my values.

The discussion is interesting. I hope we can continue to learn. Let's make lemonade.

Well you have not convinced me. We live in a society that has abandoned many of the things that used to work, for a new age way of thinking. I cannot and will not say it is just about spanking, but something is wrong when these kids do not fear any authority. Parents allow their children to behave in all kinds of way that was never acceptable when I was growing up (and I am 32 btw). I could not even imagine myself calling an elder by their first name. But all I see is adults allow that kind of interaction with kids because they want to be liked. So if they are disciplined without a belt, I am not seeing the result of that behavior in many kids today. Not all, but many.

There was not cultural consideration as to why a fight took place. Maybe the way certain individuals would respond has some issues of culture involved, but we live in a society that makes fans they say and behave in any way, shape or form because they are a fan and pay money to attend the games. And we are in a culture that makes radio hosts say just about anything about a human being that because he cannot hit a home run with the bases loaded when we want them to.

Let's take the codes out of what you are saying. Are you telling me that Black inner city kids have a lack or respect for the game? And the suburban kid with the money is respectful and respects the game more? What are you saying here?

Yeah right. :rolleyes:

I heard the entire interview on PTI where he made those statements. Barkley did not say a response with violence. He said that he would respond to someone throwing something in his face. He also said that if he threw something in someone's face, he would expect it to be on. Barkley was making it clear to everyone that it is easy to sit back and Monday morning quarterbacking this issue. I know as a man I would not just allow anyone to do something physical to me and I sit back and do absolutely nothing, because you just do not respond to violence with violence. I will assume that the folks saying that also feel we should have not gone to war after 9/11 or feel that the death penalty is immoral in all situations as well. Aren't those situations a response to violence? But our society supports those in most cases and we sit back and say almost nothing in opposition. But when someone response to personal violence, that is wrong. :rolleyes:

I can only speak for myself. I was not offended by the article, I was saddened for the man that he really thinks this boils down to a culture of music, instead of maybe a larger societal issue. The last time I checked, the term "gangsta" came from a culture that has embraced violent people and societies. Remember the Sopranos is a hit show and almost every movie that has guns blasting or cars and buildings blowing up is what this culture supports. One of the most popular movies in the Hip Hop Culture is <b>Scarface</b>. I have seen that movie probably a hundred times and I have yet to see any African-Americans in that movie or Hip Hop music in the background.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 23rd, 2004 at 03:22 PM]

My father is black. My mother is white. I know how race can play into many, many things in life. But I also think there are times when people grasp onto race as being the cause of a problem when it is not - and in my personal opinion, this fight is one of those times. I think real problem here is fans and players feeling entitled to do whatever they please and expect to get away with it. I think Stern's punishments were supposed to be a reality check to the entire league that players cannot.

I have a problem with Whitlock saying that blacks and whites have different types of sportsmanship. I've officiated at black schools and white schools and mixed schools and haven't seen a difference in sportsmanship. In my experience, most high school kids act similarly regardless of race. The problem with NBA players is because they act however they please without thinking about it. Whitlock attributing all these sportsmanship problems to race is what bothers me.

Re: I tend to agree
 

....its Fity Cent

Of course it's a racial issue. You have black players (What is it now, 80-90% of the NBA?) and a white audience paying the bills. You can't expect black players to be lily white in their expression. So.......it's a matter of how much the audience likes what they see and will pay for. If you don't like the behavior, don't pay to see em play, don't watch em on TV and don't buy your kid a jersey. If you think they are overpaid, illiterate thugs, then don't give em any of your money. I gave up watching that brand of basketball years ago. If I paid any of their salary, I'd have no right to *****. It's a matter of "market value."

Have a great day in the USA where we have choices of how we spend our money. :)

I'm not saying that you mean this but it is sad that some might think that black and illiterate go together. Again, I'm not saying anyone here has said this but we all know some people think this way.
Bgtg19, please don't try to disguise what you are trying to say by using big words and what you must think are complex sentences. As JR pointed out, it didn't work. You are right, timeouts aren't the only problem and I do not condone child abuse. However, spanking is in the good book (I don't want to start on religion) and it has always been strange to me how some use that book when they want to and dismiss it when it doesn't fit their need. That is another subject all together. Like I was saying, I do agree with you to some extent but "back in the day" we didn't have some of the problems we have today. I have always found it interesting that my grandmother didn't need a "professional" to raise 12 kids but now everyone does? It also seems like for everything wrong with kids there is a diagnosis and a pill. When did this start and did these things exist and go untreated when my mother was a kid?

As far as a clash of cultures, let's go back in time. If I remember correctly blacks used to use the word "cool" and it was slang. Who uses it now? Everyone! Blacks used to wear (started) baggy jeans and baseball hats backwards and it was a big no-no. Who does these things now? Everyone! Blacks used to be the only rappers and be the only supporters of rappers. I think Eminem just set some kind of record for sales and guess who purchased the CD? Everyone! Haven't we learned anything from George Washington Carver? The culture displayed was original, is dynamic and will be emulated. Take TO for instance, love him or hate him he is entertaining AND GOOD! Funny how I never heard the "alternative culture" blamed for those kids shooting up that high school in Colorado. Things that make you go..............

Perfect.
 

tomegun,

Right on my man. <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_100.gif' alt='' border=0></a>

Peace

I don't suppose that this is, or should be, the child discipline forum. And although I realize that it won't convince you to say this, I again want to emphasize that what parents allow or disallow is not necessarily related to the *form* of discipline that they use to enforce the limits on children's behavior. I don't choose not to spank my children because I want to be liked by them, I choose not to spank them because I want them to grow up in a world where there are solutions to problems that don't involve physical dominance. And I respect parents who thoughtfully choose a different path to raise their own children.

I agree that we live in a society that supports and encourages a poor fan culture. And I agree - if that is what you were suggesting - that it is that culture which had the most to do with the fight in Detroit.

I apologize if it appeared that I was talking in codes; I meant to be clear but apparently did not succeed. I am NOT suggesting that Black inner city kids have a lack of respect for the game or that wealthy suburban kids are more respectful. Absolutely not. What I mean to suggest is that "respect" can mean different things to different people. And, as I said in my original post, "race" cannot be used to explain much of these differences. "Culture," I think, is much more instructive. (E.g., Jason Williams and Randy Moss, if memory serves me, grew up in the same area).

I do not think one display of sportsmanship is inherently "better" than another display, even if I - by virtue of my own upbringing and cultural influences - prefer certain displays over others. I was trying to argue for a degree of tolerance; let us recognize that someone else can be demonstrating respect, or attempting to do so, even as we might disagree. I hope that tolerance extends to this forum, as I am attempting to learn and grow, even as I might disagree with others and they might disagree with me.