IAABO now has the trail covering the far side line free throw line and above in the front court. Does the NFHS manual have the same machinic?

not that i have heard about... trail has their sideline and division line, lead has baseline and far sideline....
wouldn't that be hard for the trail to see all the way over there??? especially when there is a trap or something, would be very difficult to see thru everyone.... that is one of the reasons for going to 3-man!!!!!!!!!

That's what I'm trying to say I'm interested in knowing whether or not the NFHS has made the same change or if this is an IAABO only change.

not in my books that i have gotten this year!!

No, but it's been a long-standing recommendation from RefMag.

Since T will be on the ball and L will (should be) looking into the paint, it's an easier call for T in most situations.

There is no such animal as IAABO mechanics. IAABO is a basketball officials association whose main goal is the education of basketball officials.

If you look at your IAABO High School Handbook, you will see that the officials' manual that is contained it, is the NFHS Officials' Manual. Having said that, I am not sure what you mean by the Trail covering the far sideline. Could you please give us some examples? Thanks.

MTD, Sr.

i agree in most cases that T would have a better look, but when it's out of T's primary, they supposed to take care of the post play right??? the lines shouldn't be changed if they both cover their primarys!!!!! imho

It's a Wisconsin thing, I think -- not sure if RefMag is the cause of it, but RefMag is published in the Milwaukee area.

MTD -- the mechanic is that the trail (in 2-whistle) whistles and calls all the OOB call in his primary -- any ball that goes OOB above the free throw line extended on the opposite side of the court gets whistled and called by the trail official.

This mechanic is terrible, IMO.

(1) What if the ball goes out near the FT line? Will both officials call it? Or look at each other? Or, or, or....

(2) What if the ball is slowly, slowly rolling towards the OOB line between the FTLE and the division line? How can the trail tell if it is really out of bounds or not?

(3) Don't officials have peripheral vision? This mechanic seems to stress that an official wouldn't see a ball going out of bounds if it isn't in his primary -- but you have to have AWARENESS of where the ball is. If you don't know who's responsible, blow the whistle, stop the clock, and look to your trail partner for help. Gee, that's what we've always done.

I live in Wisconsin, but my regular partner and I are not from here so this mechanic is not used and seems quite foreign to me.

YMMV.

But this is one place I'm thrilled the NFHS manual sees it my way :)

--Rich

Rich:

I understand the type of situations you describe. We know that the T has to move out into the middle of the court and even move into the backcourt to cover the ball when it is in the corner of the front court above the free throw line extended opposite the Scorer's Table. These situations usually involved trapping defenses.

When these situations occur, the L still has primary responsiblity for his sideline. But if the ball does go out-of-bounds, the official that has the best angle to make the call is the T. In these situations the T, depending upon how close he is to the play, should probably hold his whistle to give the L a chance to stop play. If the L does not stop play then the T must sound his whistle and make the call. When I am the L in these situations, if I see the ball go out-of-bounds, I will sound my whistle, but I will almost always, give the call up to the T, because he should have the best look as who caused the ball to go out-of-bounds.

MTD, Sr.

While that is technically true. . .

This, at least in my Handbook, is not true. This year, my handbook contains a hybrid of IAABO and FED mechanics. All the FED 2-whistle mechanics have been replaced with nifty E-Court diagrams (in color) and the cover page of my Officials' Manual says "IAABO" for 2004-2005, not NFHS for 2003-2005.

My Officials' Manual tells me that the correct positions for a 2-whistle crew during a full TO are: one official at midcourt, halfway between the circle and the sideline opposite the table, and the other official at the spot of the ensuing throw-in (pg. 60; and diagram, pg. 62).

That is not the FED mechanic, (as I found out earler this season (from some folks here on the forum), and yet there it is in my IAABO Handbook.

Chuck:

I have not received my IAABO Handbooks (both H.S. and College), so I was basing my remarks upon my 2003-04 Handbooks (both H.S. and College). Don't ask me why I haven't received my Handbooks for this year because that is another story.

Did you see my post in the thread about being fouled in the act of shooting and the shot clock expiring?

MTD, Sr.

I think we're saying the same thing.

However, the RefMag recommendation (and what is being taught as gospel by some officials around my neck of the woods) is that the lead has NO whistle in this situation and the trail makes the call all by himself.

Maybe in 10 years I'll see this as a great mechanic, I don't know. I'm still thinking back to the 80s when we had to cross over on the court during a live ball to get in the "cadillac." And someone (who knows why) thought this was a great idea.

A better idea? Go to three-whistle for everything and we don't have to have this discussion. :)

Rich:

Until the powers to be come to there senses and go three-whistle for everything, I too would not want to completely eliminate the L from sounding his whistle in these situations. Of course if the T is out in the center of the court covering a trapping situation in the far corner, I would think that the L has his hands full covering the other players, with most of them somewhere in the paint area.

"Cadillac," ah I remember it well. Don't your fondly remember all of those times when you and your partner were in what I called "left handed" (not "cadillac" mechanics) and as the T you start your move to get back to "Cadillac" and you get to the center of the court when the defense makes a steal and starts a 4 on 0 fast break and you are the only defender? Weren't those the days?

MTD, Sr.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Rich:

Until the powers to be come to there senses and go three-whistle for everything, I too would not want to completely eliminate the L from sounding his whistle in these situations. Of course if the T is out in the center of the court covering a trapping situation in the far corner, I would think that the L has his hands full covering the other players, with most of them somewhere in the paint area.

"Cadillac," ah I remember it well. Don't your fondly remember all of those times when you and your partner were in what I called "left handed" (not "cadillac" mechanics) and as the T you start your move to get back to "Cadillac" and you get to the center of the court when the defense makes a steal and starts a 4 on 0 fast break and you are the only defender? Weren't those the days?

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

When did this end? I had a vet trying to teach me this last year. I had never seen it in the book and thought he must be wrong. I immediately thought of the scenario you described and asked what to do if that happens-no answer.

Rich:

Until the powers to be come to there senses and go three-whistle for everything, I too would not want to completely eliminate the L from sounding his whistle in these situations. Of course if the T is out in the center of the court covering a trapping situation in the far corner, I would think that the L has his hands full covering the other players, with most of them somewhere in the paint area.

"Cadillac," ah I remember it well. Don't your fondly remember all of those times when you and your partner were in what I called "left handed" (not "cadillac" mechanics) and as the T you start your move to get back to "Cadillac" and you get to the center of the court when the defense makes a steal and starts a 4 on 0 fast break and you are the only defender? Weren't those the days?

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

When did this end? I had a vet trying to teach me this last year. I had never seen it in the book and thought he must be wrong. I immediately thought of the scenario you described and asked what to do if that happens-no answer. [/B][/QUOTE]

This lived until at least the early 1990s, I think. I started in 1987 and I think we did this for at least a few seasons.

Now we're to the point where it really doesn't matter which side the trail is on, except for free throw situations.

I am going to be a pain in the butt...
This is not just a Wisconsin thing. I ave seen it used in the west quite a bit. I believe the first people to promulgate this were the NBA 2 man officials. I know I have seen this mechanic now for 8-10 years. I think I have used it for nearly that long...

I will disagree with you. It is a good mechanic. Most of us in my area use this on a regular basis. Most of the time It is an extension of the primary area.

The one question is what happens if the ball goes OOB near the FT line...If lead had the play then lead calls it, if lead is off ball, trail has the best angle and call. You have to remeber that 98% of the time lead is off ball when this mechanic occurs...

This mechanic is designed to give the best look at the OOB and not a guess. You are right that officials can use peripheral but I believe there are many times when a lead official is working correctly that there is awareness of the ball but given a quick skip pass, or quick kick out often times a lead has no clue.

I have worked with good officials who even below FT line did not know the ball has gone out and Trail helped out and got primary whistle. This mechanic allows the most obvious trail calls to go trail.

The other situation this avoids is no off ball coverage. If you have ball up high who has the primary job of officiating the ball? trail of Course. The ball starts to drift to the opposite sideline, who has responsibility for the play? Trail.

But if we assert that the line is solely leads responsibility lead now is going wide to pick up the line. Lead is watching the line and Trail is officiating 2-4 players. Who has the other 6 banging in the paint? Not lead he is too worried about his line? Not trail he is officiating the ball.. Trail drifts toward middle maybe even farther and sees the whole play. I'd much rather miss one OOB at trail on that sideline than the banging that may be going on in the paint...

In the above play Trail is now closest to play and can get play and can get ball in better and faster.

Serious question, then.

If this is just an extension of the primary area, then surely the trail has the baseline from the corner on the trail's side all the way to the lane too, right?

Yes? No?

If so, I've not seen it. If not, then your reasoning is not being applied consistently.

--Rich

I was just taught that mechanic as a newbie in Southern Nevada, that above the freethrow line on that side could be a "shared" responsibility as a suggestion but that it should be discussed in the pregame by the officials.

Clark

Ok so it may not be totally consistent with primary since baseline is lead...

It seems to me that this mechanic works only for cases where the ball is knocked OOB and the question is who knocked it out.

For the case of a player stepping on the line, only the lead has the angle to see that. There is no way that a trail official will be able to reliably tell whether the player stepped on the line or not. I've had an occassional partner try to do that (perhaps having heard that mechanic from somewhere) and have been wrong far more times than they were right.

Camron

That is how it was explained to us--the OOB call when lead is monitoring post play.

Clark