Prior to the game, a technical foul is charged to team A. While the ball is at the disposal of B-1 for the first attempt, a double personal foul is called. Following the free throws for the technical fouls,official resumes play with a jump ball. Is the official correct?

A group of us are working on 20 questions to be presented to the rest of the class. One of the guys refuses to alter his answer saying the answer must be yes because the arrow does not get set until the the inbounder is handed the ball. The rest of us think the arrow should be changed when the free thrower is handed the ball.

The arrow is set toward the team that shall receive the throw in when the ball is bounced or placed at the disposal of the thrower casebook 6.4.1 sit F.

I think the answer is yes--Jump ball Possession arrow would not be set until ball given to team B for throw in after technical--since this would not happen in this case no possession arrow thus jump ball

The play shall resume with the alternating possesion procedure as the ball was already at the disposal of the free thrower. This means that the arrow should have already been facing toward B when he received the ball.

The arrow is not set for a pregame T until the ball is at the disposal for the throwin to start the game...after the FTs. When the double personal foul occurred, the arrow still had not been set. The result of the personal foul would be an AP throwin...but the arrow had not been set. So, a jump ball is what comes next. Question, who jumps? Do the foulers have to jump or is it anyone from either team?

"Thrower" in that case refers to "inbounder" not "Free thrower."

Since the T wasn't a common foul (duh!), the arrow isn't set on the FT -- it's set when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder.

Since the arrow wasn't set when the double foul occurred, the arrow can't be used for posession.

Jump ball between those involved in the double foul. The jump ball will be in the center circle, no matter where the foul occurred.

Jump ball between the players unless it was a flagrant double foul. The arrow has not been established during the technical free throws.

Bob, you're right on. An NFHS official should do exactly what you say. Redhouse failed to given proper attention to the sentence immediately prior to the one quoted. That one reads, "Team A will then be given the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the table." So, as you said, Bob, thrower in the next sentence clearly refers to the inbounder not the free thrower.

So that everyone who reads this is clear 4-3 deals with the setting of the initial arrow. This rule tells us that whether the foul is a common foul or a noncommon (technical, intentional) foul makes a difference in when the arrow is initially set.
"the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:"
"ART. 2...The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3...The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul when the bonus free throw is not in effect."

OldCoachNewRef,
Article 3b is the proper one to apply for this play. Notice the word "after" just before the colon in article 3. The arrow is not set until AFTER the free throws. Tell that ONE guy who is in your group thanks, since he is right.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 16th, 2004 at 06:48 AM]

thanks for clearing that up. I must have been looking at the wrong rule. It sounded good when I read it.

Thank you
 

Thanks Guys, we would have gotten that one wrong tomorrow night!! BTW we will listen to the guy with the correct answer from now on ;)

OK, I guess that technically the ball is live when it is at the disposal of the thrower B1 on the technical foul, BUT - can we really have a double foul on a technical situation? I mean all the players are off the line and I am really struggling with defining a situation where a double foul would be appropriate here. Sounds like something more severe to me. Adjudication is the same I believe - jump ball after B1's free throws. What do you guys think?

If the fouls are for physical contact during the live ball period, then the ONLY fouls that you could call during that time would be a personal foul of some type. In this case-a double personal foul. These personal fouls could be either intentional or flagrant also, but they HAVE to be personal. If the fouls are non-contact during a live ball-i.e. trash talking-, then you could have a double technical foul. These technical fouls could be labelled intentional or flagrant too, depending on the circumstances.

The original question said that it was a double personal foul, so it had to be contact fouls by opponents at approximately the same time during a live ball. Usually what you get in these cases is a coupla shoves, and you're not sure who started it.

just interested
 

Old Coach,

I am interested as to whether this actually happened to you or is this just a test or study question. Has anyone ever had something like this hapen to them before the game even started with noone occupying any of the lane spaces. It seems that during most T's the teams are near their benches talking with the coach.

My point wasn't that it should be a technical vs a personal foul situation and I agree with you that since the ball was live we are going to be limited to personal, intentional, or flagrant.

I don't believe that a double personal is a realistic option in this situation. All the players, save the free thrower B1 are away from the ball and not involved in any basketball activity. I think it would have to be intentional/flagrant in this situation. Result is the same, with possible exception of pending ejections for a double flagrant.

This was one of 80 questions that 4 different groups had to answer. I was the the leader of the group for questions #61 to #80. No, this never actually happened, and in all of my years coaching, I have never seen it. I agree, most likely if there was contact during the shooting of a T, it would be flagrant or intentional. But if there was just a little push between the two, double foul or false double foul, depending on the official's judgement.

Why would it make any difference if the fouls were flagrant or not?

I don't think it would make a difference other than which players would be in the jump circle.

No jump ball?
 

Just got an answer on the ruling from my supervisor:
There would be no jump ball! "The double fouls would offset. (no shots) Resume technical fouls procedures with the shooters team getting the ball @ the division line. The arrow would also be set during the throw in to the inbounding team."

I won't be able to argue his answer unless I get a casebook or official ruling from the rulebook. BktBallRef, can you help on this?

Re: No jump ball?
 

Unfortunately, your supervisor is incorrect. The relevant rules that you need to show him are 4-3-3b, 8-7, Summary of Penalties for All Fouls, 1(c) on pg. 67, and 6-4-3f NOTE.

4-3-3b details how to set the arrow initially. It states that you wait until the ball is at the disposal of the player who will make the throw-in to set the arrow after a noncommon foul (technical, intentional).
8-7 states, "Penalties for fouls are administered in the order in which the fouls occurred."
This means that you need to assess the penalty for the double personal foul after you finish shooting the FTs for the technical foul. You cannot splice the penalty for the double personal foul inbetween the two parts of the penalty for the technical foul (the 2FTs and the awarding of possession). The penalty for the double personal foul supercedes the awarding of possession from the T. The game is now continued by assessing the appropriate penalty for the double personal foul.
1(c) from the Summary of Penalties tells you what that appropriate penalty is. No free throws are awarded for the double personal foul and an AP throw-in results, but 6-4-3f NOTE explains the a jump ball must take place "between the two players involved" if the alternating-possession procedure has not been established when the double personal foul occurred.

To sum up, the initial arrow is not set yet at the time of the double personal because the first foul was a noncommon foul and the rules say to wait to set it until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower for the throw-in which would have followed the 2 FTs. Since there was a double personal foul before the AP procedure had been established, there needs to be a jump ball in the center restraining circle between the two players involved in the double personal foul.
It takes a little reading and piecing together, but it is all there in black and white for your supervisor, if he willing to read it and listen to you. Good luck.
PS Where are you located?

We are located in South Jersey, Board 34. This is my second year of class. Worked about 75 games last year, lower level HS and independent games. We take our IAABO exam for certification (2nd year people only) part 1 the Monday after Thanksgiving and part 2 (floor test) in February. We MUST get no less than an 86 on either part to be certified, or else we must take the class again next year. You cannot do Varsity games unless certified and depending on how good you are, this usually takes 3 to 5 years.

Wow, are you ever lucky. The IAABO Part 1 answers for this year have already been posted in another thread.

I know that you wouldn't cheat and use them.

Others........I would hope that they would resist the temptation also.

The thread I think you are referring to lists the refresher test (study guide) answers not the actual test. I am still looking for a copy of the refresher test if anyone has a copy they can email me-or knows where to find it on the web.

I presented the question/answer to the class last night. At first the supervisor said our group was wrong with the answer, but after looking at the answer key, he couldn't believe we were right. He is going to talk with our rules interpretor about the question and get back to us next week (final class before the test). Thank you for your posts and responses.

Yeah! Score one for those of us here on the forum. :)