Rule 4-4-7-d states that the ball is at the disposal of a player when it is, "Available to a player after a goal."

Relative to calling time out during the dead ball interval after a made basket, is there an accepted meaning for "available"? I know what the play looks like and how we usually apply the rule, but I am curious about what was actually intended.

Now I have to find one of those cool signature quotes for the bottom of my emails. I assume when I get one that I become a Senior Member. :-)

Rick

Generally, when B has the ball OOB, or could have the ball OOB (if they choose not to pick it up for some reason).

Someone is right.

You can't grant a TO when the other team has the ball or it's at it's their disposal- even before they step OOB.

Casebook play 6.1.2SitB(a) has a good explanation.

JR:

Your statement is partially correct and partially incorrect.

There have been other threads concerning when the ball becomes at the disposal of the thrower after a goal is scored. NFHS R5-S8-A3b and NCAA R5-S9-A4 and A5 are the governing references with regard to requesting a timeout.

I agree with you that after Team A scored and Team B does not make an effort to pick-up the ball to take it out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in the covering official can declare the ball at the disposal of Team B by starting a five second count; once the official starts his five second count if Team A requests a timeout, its request cannot be granted. Why? The ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of the team allowed to make the throw-in. If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in. That means the ball is dead until the ball is at the disposal of Team B and while the ball is dead any team can request a timeout and the timeout request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

6.1.2 situation B disagrees with that interpretation. That case play clearly states that the ball may be deemed at the disposal whether the throwing team is inbounds or out. '

The comment after the case play even talks about a ball near the end line being availiable to a player, that the count can begin.

Further the case play for 5-8-3 disagrees with you too.
5.8.3 situation D.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 10th, 2004 at 11:37 PM]

BZ:

From my origianl post I said:

"If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in."

In this situation, when would you start your five second count, when B1 first takes possession of the ball while still inbounds after Team A's score, or when B1 is completely out-of-bounds? Please explain your decision? Thank you in advance.

MTD, Sr.

The count begins when it is at the disposal, so yes BEFORE they are OOBs.

Both case plays I cited say as much. One goes as far as to say if the throwing team can pick up the ball but delays, the official may begin the count BEFORE they secure the ball.

Your absolutely correct of B1 delays, but in my situation B1 does not delay, and therefore the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for the purposes of making a throw-in until B1 is completely out-of-bounds. In my situation you do not start your five second count until B1 is completely out-of-bounds, at the time the ball becomes live and is at the disposal of Team B, and the official can start a five second count. Therefore, until the ball becomes live Team A can request a timeout and Team A's request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

That's NOT what the case book say, Mark.

It talks about when they secure the ball or if it is availiable for them to secure it, but there is not one mention of waiting until they are OOB.

BZ:

Let me get this straight. A1 intercepts a pass in Team B's front court and goes the length of the court for a slam dunk. The ball, due to the force of A1's dunk bounces back toward the division line. B1 comes running down the court and is the first Team B player to get to the ball when it is near Team A's free throw line and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds for ensuing throw-in. The instant B1 takes possession at Team A's free throw line of the ball you are going to start start a five second count? Please tell you are not going to start a five second count at that point?

MTD, Sr.

It is the official's judgement, by rule, as to when the ball is at the disposal.

Obviously in that extreme situation the ball is not at team B's disposal 70 feet from a throw in.

However, if B1 takes the ball right out of the net and starts toward the end line, yes I'm starting my count at that point, which is what the case play says.

I disagree.

Team B has 5 seconds to release the throwin. That 5 seconds begins when it is at their disposal. If you're not counting, A can call timeout.

Disposal begins when B has the ball in their hands and are in a position to make a throw-in OR they should be in such a position (by the officials judgement) and are delaying and a count has been started.

If you are giving time for the offense to start the throwin (by not starting the count), you must also give that same time to the defense to use. If the timeout is denied, it can only be because the ball is live. The ball can only become live if the throw-in has begun. If that is true, a count must be underway.

The case plays cite say the official "may" deem the ball at the disposal of the throwing team before they're OOB. It doesn't say the ball IS at their disposal as soon as they pick it up.

The case plays cite say the official "may" deem the ball at the disposal of the throwing team before they're OOB. It doesn't say the ball IS at their disposal as soon as they pick it up.


[/B][/QUOTE]Lah me!

Rule 5-8-3-- <i>"Time out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when (a) the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team (b) the ball is dead...</i>.

Rule 4-4-7(d)-- <i>"A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal"</i>.

Rule 6-1-2(b)-- <i>"The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower"</i>.

Casebook play 6.1.2SitB-COMMENT-- <i>"In this situation, the covering official must give the new throw-in team a moment or two to recognize it is their ball for a throw-in and get a player in the area to pick up the ball. If the ball is near the end line, it is the throw-in team's responsibility to secure it and throw it in from anywhere out of bounds along the end line. The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available:</i>.

Sooooo.....we got rules language stating that the ball is available, or at the disposal of the team throwing it in as soon as they have a player in the area of the ball. We also have rules language that states that the ball now becomes live at this time too. Not only live, but it's obviously live in Team B's possession. Not Team A's possession-- Team B's possession!

Could your or MTD Sr. now tell me how you can now award a TO to team A under the provisions of R5-8-3 when Team B has a live ball at it's disposal? Appropriate rules citations would be helpful.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2004 at 07:27 AM]

If B1 has the ball "inbounds", how can they make a legal throw-in? If they can't make a legal throw-in, how can the ball be at their disposal?

(To avoid B "gaming the system" by not taking the ball OOB, we start the count when, in our judgment, they could have had the ball OOB, but choose not to.)

The throw-in period starts in-bounds when the official determines that the ball is available-i.e. at the disposal of the thrower-in. To make a legal throw-in, they then just have to take it out-of -bounds and throw it in within their alloted 5 seconds from when the throw-in began(in-bounds). I think that I might be missing your point on this one.

To go back to the original dispute, would you grant the other team's request for a TO if the ball was available and at the disposal in-bounds of the team that was making the throw-in, Bob? If so, under what rule(s)? And what about 6.1.2SitB(a) where it says the TO can't be granted even though the ball is bouncing in-bounds if it's at the thrower's disposal?

No, I wouldn't grant the TO if the ball was at the disposal of the inbouding team. The question is and has always been how "disposal" is defined / practiced.

IMHO, If B has the ball OOB, or could have had the ball OOB, then it's at their disposal. If it's "too soon" for them to have the ball OOB, then it's not at their disposal.

The definition of "too soon" is the same as the definition of pornography -- I know it when I see it.

IMHO, If B has the ball OOB, or could have had the ball OOB, then it's at their disposal. If it's "too soon" for them to have the ball OOB, then it's not at their disposal.

The definition of "too soon" is the same as the definition of pornography -- I know it when I see it. [/B][/QUOTE]Agree. Experience usually lets you know the difference between when a team is trying to avoid having the ball at their disposal and the occasion when there is a just a little confusion as to deciding who's gonna actually make the throw-in.

IMO, this is one of the few times when the NBA's rule is better than ours. In the NBA, a team may not be granted a TO during the dead ball period immediately after that team scores.

Agree. Experience usually lets you know the difference between when a team is trying to avoid having the ball at their disposal and the occasion when there is a just a little confusion as to deciding who's gonna actually make the throw-in. [/B][/QUOTE]

At times I have started my count shortly after the score when B5 tips the scored ball toward the endline (to nobody), and turns to go up court with no teammates on the endline to throw-in.
I have figgered "at disposal".

If team A had tipped that ball, I would have warned. So, I figger if Team B tips it, I may as well start counting.
mick

So are you saying that that a request for TO can be granted up to the point where you start you count? After you start your count (I'm assuming) you have determined that the ball is "at their disposal" and you will no longer recognize an opponent's request for TO?

Yes.

I usually find that individuals have one of two questions on this:

Q1) For how long can I grant the TO?
Q2) When is the ball at the disposal / do I start my count?

A1) Until you start your count
A2) AS soon as you would no longer grant a TO to A.

Yes, it's circular reasoning. But as long as an individual is only confused about one of those issues, it works. And, for some reasaon, people who are confused by Q1 aren't confused by Q2, and vice-versa.

Believe it or not--it makes perfect sense!!!

Actually, I would feel more comfortable if there was a more black/white way of deciding exactly when the ball is supposedly "at the disposal" of the inbounding team. I've read the previous posts--not sure I've heard a definitive answer.

BZ:

I hope that you have been reading Bob Jenkins and Camron Rust's posts because what they say is correct.

MTD, Sr.

The rules are pretty clear.

If the ball is in the vicinity of the throw in area, i.e. end line, when team B secures the ball, or if in the official's judgement COULD secure the ball, it is at their disposal, the ball is live, and the count starts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B]6.1.2 situation B disagrees with that interpretation. That case play clearly states that the ball may be deemed at the disposal whether the throwing team is inbounds or out. '

The comment after the case play even talks about a ball near the end line being availiable to a player, that the count can begin.

Further the case play for 5-8-3 disagrees with you too.
5.8.3 situation D.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 01:59 PM]

[/B][/QUOTE]

JR agrees with me and so does the rule book, so who's correct?

Or does this fall under the cone of disposalability? [/B][/QUOTE]


BZ:

I am sorry to inform you that the rules support Bob Jenkins, Cameron Rust, and I. Read their posts and learn.

MTD, Sr.

Uh, MTD Sr., could you tell me how you got from this response to saying that Bob agrees with you that you COULD grant a TO?

JR agrees with me and so does the rule book, so who's correct?

Or does this fall under the cone of disposalability? [/B][/QUOTE]


BZ:

I am sorry to inform you that the rules support Bob Jenkins, Cameron Rust, and I. Read their posts and learn.

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

Cite a rule, not some play from your head to support it.

There is not one rule that states ball in hands, player OOB equalls disposal. In fact EVERY rule covering a throw in after a basket says the EXACT opposite.

MTD, read the RULES and learn. ;)

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 02:00 PM]

JR:

I am sorry, I was referring to the disagreement that BZ is having with Cameron Rust, Bob Jenkins, and I.

MTD, Sr.

This hinges on "available". If the player is or could be in a a position to to actually make a throw-in, then it is available.

If, as you say, it is available and at their disposal when the team picks up the ball, I suggest you consider the following variations:

Ball drops through the net B1 picks it up right there, available you say? You start the count and disallow a TO by A?

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the FT line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd hope not.

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the division line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd REALLY hope not.

The rules do say that the count begins when the throw-in begins. The rules do say the throw-in begins when it is at the teams disposal. If you consider it at their disposal when they pick up the ball, you should be counting when the player that retreived the ball from the division line is jogging towards the endline to execute the throw-in.

B1 must be in a location (or had enough time to get there) where he can make a legal throw-in before the throw-in actually begins.

The point at which A can no longer call timeout is simultaneous to the point at which the throwin count begins. If you're counting the 5 count when B is 20 feet from a legal throwin spot, you're really disadvantaging the thrower.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 11th, 2004 at 03:23 PM]

Mark, isn't that basically what the disagreement has been about so far? What am I missing? :confused:

Camron, isn't the above basically the original question? Didn't the poster say that "A has made the basket and as soon as B has <b>grabbed</b> the ball, it is too late for A to call a time-out, even before B has stepped out of bounds"? The question wasn't whether you would start a count or not; it was whether you would grant a time-out request by B after A had grabbed the ball. I quoted a buncha rules that say(imo) that you can't grant the TO request. I still haven't seen any rule quoted that would say that you can grant a TO request in this particular instance-- not when the ball rolls away-- but in this particular instance.

BZ:

You keep missing the point that Cameron, Bob, and I are making. The location of B1, when he has possession of the ball, is important when deteriming when the ball the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. You are confusing two types of plays: #1) The ball is available for B1 to pick up and take it out-of-bounds, so as to start a throw-in, or B1 does pick up the ball but makes no effort to take the ball out-of-bounds immediately so as to start a throw-in; and #2) B1 does pick up the ball immediately and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds so as to start a throw-in.

In Play #2, it does not matter where the location of the ball is, as long as a player from B makes every effort to secure the ball as soon as possible after Team A scores, and once a player secures the ball, makes every effort to take the ball out-of-bounds as soon as possible so as to start its throw-in, then the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and no part is his body is touching inbounds. And that is when the official shall start his five seconds count for the throw-in.

You must also remember that the definition of a throw-in is: A method of putting the ball in play from OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

The reason there are casebook plays involving situations like Play #1 above are to show how situations where Team B's actions are to be construed as delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball. In Play #2, Team B is not guilty of delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball.

Right now I do not feel like climbing up Mt. Attic to go through 34 years of casebooks, but I can assure you that what Bob Jenkins and Cameron Rust have been telling you is the correct way to start a five second throw-in count. Why? Because Team B cannot start a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and in possession of the ball, then and only then, with the exceptions of Play #1, does the status of the ball go from dead to live and the ball is now at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. In 34 years of officiating high school and college basketball I have never (forgive me J. Dallas Shirley for using the word never) seen an official start his five second count in Play #2 until B1 is out-of-bounds with the ball, nor have I ever heard an official advocate such a position as yours because to do so would mean that the official did not have a thorough knowledge of the applicable rules and an understanding of the how and why of the rules concerned.

MTD, Sr.

No its not too late for Team A to request and be granted a timeout, because even though B1 immediately grabs the ball and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball is dead until B1 is completely out-of-bounds and is not touching inbounds. Then and only then does the dead ball become live and now if Team A requests a timeout, its request shall not be granted.

MTD, Sr.

Sigh. Again, Mark, I quoted you a whole buncha RULES that say that you're completely wrong. What I'm getting in return from you is your OPINION, and nothing else. If you can find a rule- any rule- that will support your opinion, feel free to post it. I've got an open mind. Until then, I'm just wasting time quoting the same rules back to you, only to have you say "oh no no, those rules are wrong".

Btw, re-read Bob's answer above. He seems to think that it's too late to grant the TO request by A in this situation after B has the ball at it's disposal IN-BOUNDS.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2004 at 04:11 PM]

4-41-3 The throw in and throw in count begins when ball is at the disposal of the team entitled to it.

By what rule?

That is 100% wrong.

5.8.3 situation D:

A1 or A2 requests a time out: a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball. b) A1's throw in is in flight toward A2. c) when the ball IS ON THE FLOOR at A1's disposal for a throw in. The time out is granted in a and c, but not in b.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 04:56 PM]

I'm not missing anything other then the time I'm wasting trying to get you to stop throwing OPINION at me and give a rule to support your 100% incorrect interpretation.

Hey...What's all the discussion about?

It's a judgement call!

One official's judgement of "disposal" may be different than another official's.

I think Bob said you would know it when you see it.

Maybe this rule has some room for us to use our judgment as to when we can grant a time-out or not in relationship to "disposal".

Everyone agrees that once the ball is at the disposal of team A, team B can not be granted a time out. I don' think their is any disagreement there.

Everyone agrees that the ball <em>may</em> be considered to be at teams A's disposal when it is still inbounds or whether A has picked up the ball or not.

The difference is that I, and others, assert that it is not absolute that it be at their disposal just bacause they pick it up. NONE of the posted cases or rules support that.

Again, if you consider it at their disposal, you have a count in progress. If you're not counting, you have indirectly decided it is not at their disposal and team B can have the time out.

I restate my earlier point....

If team A picks up the ball 2' from the endline, you consider it at their disposal? OK. Are you counting? If not, it's not at their disposal.

Team A picks up the ball 20' from the endline...you going to start you count at that moment...even though it takes 2-3 seconds for A to get to the endline leaving them only 2 seconds to complete the throwin???

Disposal = ball available to team A such that they could make a legal throwin at that point or had enough time to get into a position to make a legal throwin.

It's all about judgement. Nobody is contesting that point.

MTD is using your posts to reinforce his stance that the ball MUST be OOB for it to be at their disposal, and unless I'm reading your posts wrong, you are not saying that at all.

The situation where the ball rolls to mid court keeps coming up.

If the shooting team contacts that ball and causes it to go into a corner or above the FT line, you hit your whistle and warn for delay.

If the ball gets there on it's own or deflects off the team throwing in, you can either wait until they get the ball into position to throw it in or hit the whistle to get the ball back into play.

In both cases you are then handing the ball on the throw in, so disposal is the same as a spot throw in, with the ability to run the end line.

Camron:

For BZ's sake you had better clarify your first point above, I think that you and I would both agree that when A1 picks up the ball two feet from the endline, the official should wait to see if A1 is just going to stand there and waste time or does he immediately move to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in. If it is the former, then the ball can be considered at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball is now live, and a five second count can be started, meaning that if Team B now makes a request for a timeout it will not be granted. But if it is the latter, then the ball does not become at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball does not become live, and the five second count should not start until A1 is out-of-bounds and no part of him is touching inbounds; until this happens if Team B makes a request for a timeout, it should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

Camron:

For BZ's sake you had better clarify your first point above, I think that you and I would both agree that when A1 picks up the ball two feet from the endline, the official should wait to see if A1 is just going to stand there and waste time or does he immediately move to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in. If it is the former, then the ball can be considered at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball is now live, and a five second count can be started, meaning that if Team B now makes a request for a timeout it will not be granted. But if it is the latter, then the ball does not become at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball does not become live, and the five second count should not start until A1 is out-of-bounds and no part of him is touching inbounds; until this happens if Team B makes a request for a timeout, it should be granted.

[/B][/QUOTE]Lah me.

Still no rules citations to back up any of your suppositions, Mark. Any specific reason for that? Maybe because there aren't any? :D

JR, they are in the rules covering the cone of disposalbility. :D

Let's break down how illogical that is, shall we.

If the throwing team does what, by rule, they are supposed to do, secure the ball and move to the endline, you WILL allow the other team to call a time out.

If they don't do what they are, by rule, supposed to do, you WILL NOT allow a time out for the other team.

Do you realize just how unfair and idiotic that sounds.

Do what you are supposed to do and get penalized.

Don't do what you are supposed to do and the OTHER team gets penalized.

When we start (or don't start) the count, we don't know that A wants a TO. So, we can't consider A in this scenario -- we can only consider B.

If B is delaying, starting the count penalizes B -- it minimizes the delay.

If B is not delaying, not starting the count advantages B -- it gives them the full 5 seconds from the time they get ready to make the throw-in.

I think you earlier said something to the effect of "If B gets the ball two feet from the end-line, I'll start my count, but if they get it at half court (with no penalty / warning involved), I'll wait until they get OOB." If you did say something to that effect, I'd like to ask exactly where the dividing line is -- 5 feet? 10 feet? the FT line?

And, if you wait when B picks up the ball at the division line, why don't you start the count when they get to within whatever that arbitrary distance is?



[Edited by bob jenkins on Nov 12th, 2004 at 04:50 PM]

It still penalizes A when there is NOT a delay, now doesn't it? The rule says to wait a moment or two before you begin a count to see if B is delaying or is just confused, so there should be a GREATER opportunity for A to call a timeout in this situation, not less as MTD suggests.

It still comes down to this, there is no rule that says disposal is ball OOB after a made basket.

MTD is flat out wrong about this, and so is anyone who agrees with him.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 12th, 2004 at 05:05 PM]

I NEVER said any such thing about OOB. I said earlier that if the ball gets away on it's own or delects off the throwing team you can either wait until they are in position to throw it in, or hit the whistle and treat it like a spot throw in with the ability to run the end line.

It's called common sense and judgement WITHIN the rules. Saying it must be OOB is adding something that is NOT IN THE RULES.

Agree. But we also have to then make the determination of whether B actually had possession of the ball or the ball at it's disposal if A does subsequently request a TO. Getting away from all of the mind-numbing verbiage that been used so far (including my own), the original question was what was the point in time that you would NOT allow a TO request from the scoring team. If I'm interpreting the rules correctly( and I think I am), on a normal situation- not including the ones where the ball bounces away- you can't honor that TO request if it's made after a player from the team scored on grabs the ball after the made shot even if it's preparatory to going OOB to make the throw-in, or you alternatively determine that that team has met the rules language of having the ball at it's disposal. Iow, if a B player grabs the ball to take it OOB, then a subsequent TO request by A will be denied- even though the B player is still inbounds.

That was the original scenario. Do you agree with that, Bob, or do you have any rules reference that would say otherwise?